Advice needed re bi-amping using stereo amp per channel

[CBP]

Hi, I’m looking to use two Beard P101 amps, one per channel, with the left channel of one hooked up to the HF posts on my speaker and the right channel hooked up to the LF posts on the speaker. Would effectively be bi-amping each channel using a single stereo amp on each channel.

Is this going to cause any problems for the amps?

Would I be better off using one amp to power the Left speakers LF with its left channel, and the right speakers LF with its right channel and the second amp to power the HF in the same way?

Cheers,

Chris.

 

[Andy Stephenson]

What you'll need to do is this.

Two right outputs on your pre amp to one power amp and then you can use the left and right
channels for the bass and treble input on the right speaker.

The two left outputs on your pre amp go to the other Power amp and then as the other one to
the left speaker.

I believe this is called vertical bi amping.

Horizontal bi amping is when your use one power amp for the two treble inputs
and the other one for the two bass inputs. If you want to do it this way you'll need a left and right input to each power amp.

Hope this is clear.
It's how I've got mine wired up.

Regards Andy

 

[newlash09]

What you'll need to do is this.

Two right outputs on your pre amp to one power amp and then you can use the left and right
channels for the bass and treble input on the right speaker.

The two left outputs on your pre amp go to the other Power amp and then as the other one to
the left speaker.

I believe this is called vertical bi amping.

Horizontal bi amping is when your use one power amp for the two treble inputs
and the other one for the two bass inputs.

Hope this is clear.
It's how I've got mine wired up.

Regards Andy

+1

 

[tackleberry]

+1

+2

 

[Colinjg]

My dealer told me that vertical is the best way of doing it. If the amps are identical.

 

[Andy Stephenson]

My dealer told me that vertical is the best way of doing it. If the amps are identical.

If the amps aren't identical you would end up with something akin to using two different makes of speaker. Different gain on each one would just be the start of all sorts of unbalanced sounds

Andy

 

[Snoopdog]

Vertical bi-amping also requires that the interconnects between pre and power amps and speaker cabling is the same throughout!

Horizontal bi-amping is easier to achieve if you have different power amps (but must be same gain) and cabling is different for the bass and mid/treble sections of the passive crossover on the loudspeakers.

https://hifiwigwam.com/forum/thread...ive-horizontal-bi-amping.104853/#post-2148540

 

[StingRay]

Is it worth it? I read mixed reports about bi-amping.

I would have thought going active would be more beneficial.

 

[hearhere]

Is it worth it? I read mixed reports about bi-amping.

I would have thought going active would be more beneficial.

I dubt it's worth bi-amping unless you are aiming to use DSP room correction for the bass only. In that case, active crossover first, then RC to bass only and separately top without RC.

 

[Andy Stephenson]

Reading between the lines I think CBP already has the two amps
in which case there is no harm in trying to see if it's worth it.
With the caveat that the rewiring needs to be done carefully and correctly.

Going active should add sonic improvements, if the correct crossovers
can be sourced.

Andy

 

[CBP]

Reading between the lines I think CBP already has the two amps
in which case there is no harm in trying to see if it's worth it.
With the caveat that the rewiring needs to be done carefully and correctly.

Going active should add sonic improvements, if the correct crossovers
can be sourced.

Andy

Thanks for all the advice and info. Going active? Explain this to me, assuming I’m an idiot! My understanding is that active is having amps built in to the speakers.

Basically, I have a P101 and stuck in a complete set of Gold lion valves, using KT88s as the output valves. It sounded truly amazing, truly incredible bass that was powerful and so extended - my whole room moved- and it had the most stunning treble, all wit a soundstage that had real depth. Perhaps not the most detailed or resolving amp, but it sounded magical if you know what I mean, not at all like listening to a piece of hardware making music.

Unfortunately the biasing went crazy and it has fried some output valves so I’m going to get it repaired and completely restored.

There is a chap on here selling another 101 which I want to buy. It’s been serviced but I will send them both off to be given a total ground up restoration.

I can’t imagine anything better than having two of these beasts with 16 KT88s in total driving my TDL Reference Standard Transmission Line speakers.

I just want to be made aware of any issues relating to bi-amping either vertical or horizontal.

I’m currently using my KSA250 which is nice but not a patch on the Beard.

I have a whole load of gear to sell, about 7-8k worth as I have been experimenting with various stuff, but now want to sell it and settle on the beards, with my Cyrus CDt, Cyrus DAC XP+ system and just listen to music.

I made my original post as I had some concern that vertical bi-amping may damage the amp as the L and R channels would usually be totally separate but I don’t think this is the case if I use them to bi-amp my speakers even though they can be set for bi-wite operation (I can’t see how bi-wite can actually work as it’s exactly the same circuit as single wire- but I can see how bi-amping may work as each amp is separate abs under different load )

Anyhoo, as I say, I’m just after a setup I can stick with for a few years so I can just listen to music again and not my Hifi - but I know I will still tweak it by trying different valves etc as it’s in my blood!

Cheers,

Chris.

 

[tuga]

Thanks for all the advice and info. Going active? Explain this to me, assuming I’m an idiot! My understanding is that active is having amps built in to the speakers.

Basically, I have a P101 and stuck in a complete set of Gold lion valves, using KT88s as the output valves. It sounded truly amazing, truly incredible bass that was powerful and so extended - my whole room moved- and it had the most stunning treble, all wit a soundstage that had real depth. Perhaps not the most detailed or resolving amp, but it sounded magical if you know what I mean, not at all like listening to a piece of hardware making music.

Unfortunately the biasing went crazy and it has fried some output valves so I’m going to get it repaired and completely restored.

There is a chap on here selling another 101 which I want to buy. It’s been serviced but I will send them both off to be given a total ground up restoration.

I can’t imagine anything better than having two of these beasts with 16 KT88s in total driving my TDL Reference Standard Transmission Line speakers.

I just want to be made aware of any issues relating to bi-amping either vertical or horizontal.

I’m currently using my KSA250 which is nice but not a patch on the Beard.

I have a whole load of gear to sell, about 7-8k worth as I have been experimenting with various stuff, but now want to sell it and settle on the beards, with my Cyrus CDt, Cyrus DAC XP+ system and just listen to music.

I made my original post as I had some concern that vertical bi-amping may damage the amp as the L and R channels would usually be totally separate but I don’t think this is the case if I use them to bi-amp my speakers even though they can be set for bi-wite operation (I can’t see how bi-wite can actually work as it’s exactly the same circuit as single wire- but I can see how bi-amping may work as each amp is separate abs under different load )

Anyhoo, as I say, I’m just after a setup I can stick with for a few years so I can just listen to music again and not my Hifi - but I know I will still tweak it by trying different valves etc as it’s in my blood!

Cheers,

Chris.

You'd have to remove/disconnect the crossovers from the speaker drivers and filter the (line-level) signal going into the amplifiers.

As for bi-amping, if your amplifiers are not designet to work as monos then it might be wise to use one for L+R Woofer and another for L+R Tweeter. Why would you want to do bi-amp, though, are your amplifiers underpowered?

 

[Andy Stephenson]

Thanks for all the advice and info. Going active? Explain this to me, assuming I’m an idiot! My understanding is that active is having amps built in to the speakers.

Basically, I have a P101 and stuck in a complete set of Gold lion valves, using KT88s as the output valves. It sounded truly amazing, truly incredible bass that was powerful and so extended - my whole room moved- and it had the most stunning treble, all wit a soundstage that had real depth. Perhaps not the most detailed or resolving amp, but it sounded magical if you know what I mean, not at all like listening to a piece of hardware making music.

Unfortunately the biasing went crazy and it has fried some output valves so I’m going to get it repaired and completely restored.

There is a chap on here selling another 101 which I want to buy. It’s been serviced but I will send them both off to be given a total ground up restoration.

I can’t imagine anything better than having two of these beasts with 16 KT88s in total driving my TDL Reference Standard Transmission Line speakers.

I just want to be made aware of any issues relating to bi-amping either vertical or horizontal.

I’m currently using my KSA250 which is nice but not a patch on the Beard.

I have a whole load of gear to sell, about 7-8k worth as I have been experimenting with various stuff, but now want to sell it and settle on the beards, with my Cyrus CDt, Cyrus DAC XP+ system and just listen to music.

I made my original post as I had some concern that vertical bi-amping may damage the amp as the L and R channels would usually be totally separate but I don’t think this is the case if I use them to bi-amp my speakers even though they can be set for bi-wite operation (I can’t see how bi-wite can actually work as it’s exactly the same circuit as single wire- but I can see how bi-amping may work as each amp is separate abs under different load )

Anyhoo, as I say, I’m just after a setup I can stick with for a few years so I can just listen to music again and not my Hifi - but I know I will still tweak it by trying different valves etc as it’s in my blood!

Cheers,

Chris.

Hi Chris, Active is rather more awkward.

The crossovers in the speakers are removed and replaced by purpose built ones. The new crossovers
are wired up either inbetween the pre and power amps or are built into the power amps.
This means that each drive unit in both speakers will need a separate amp.
So two stereo amps as in your case will be able to power a pair of two way speakers.
A pair of three way speakers will need 3 stereo power amps.
The reason for active speakers are that each amp (or half a stereo amp) will only power one drive unit
with an increase in clarity, power etc. These replacement active crossovers are designed for and will only work with the speakers that they are designed for. Also these speakers will only work with the amps that have the crossovers added. Separate cables will be needed from each power amp to each speaker unit.


This is not to be confused with 'active speakers' which have amps built into the speaker cabinet and are
supplied as a complete pair of amp/speakers!

I hope all this makes sense

Regards Andy

 

[StingRay]

Thanks for all the advice and info. Going active? Explain this to me, assuming I’m an idiot! My understanding is that active is having amps built in to the speakers.

Basically, I have a P101 and stuck in a complete set of Gold lion valves, using KT88s as the output valves. It sounded truly amazing, truly incredible bass that was powerful and so extended - my whole room moved- and it had the most stunning treble, all wit a soundstage that had real depth. Perhaps not the most detailed or resolving amp, but it sounded magical if you know what I mean, not at all like listening to a piece of hardware making music.

Unfortunately the biasing went crazy and it has fried some output valves so I’m going to get it repaired and completely restored.

There is a chap on here selling another 101 which I want to buy. It’s been serviced but I will send them both off to be given a total ground up restoration.

I can’t imagine anything better than having two of these beasts with 16 KT88s in total driving my TDL Reference Standard Transmission Line speakers.

I just want to be made aware of any issues relating to bi-amping either vertical or horizontal.

I’m currently using my KSA250 which is nice but not a patch on the Beard.

I have a whole load of gear to sell, about 7-8k worth as I have been experimenting with various stuff, but now want to sell it and settle on the beards, with my Cyrus CDt, Cyrus DAC XP+ system and just listen to music.

I made my original post as I had some concern that vertical bi-amping may damage the amp as the L and R channels would usually be totally separate but I don’t think this is the case if I use them to bi-amp my speakers even though they can be set for bi-wite operation (I can’t see how bi-wite can actually work as it’s exactly the same circuit as single wire- but I can see how bi-amping may work as each amp is separate abs under different load )


Cheers,

Chris.

Active is to do with the crossovers, they don’t have to have the amps inside the speakers but many do, but having amps inside the speakers does not make them active. Actives will have an amp for each driver, they can be tailored to the drivers requirement, so more power to the bass than the tweeters. Powered speakers can have the amps inside the cabinets but are not active. Members on here have actives but the amps are external just like passives. The crossover is before the amp. In actives.

Confused now?

 

[CBP]

Hi Chris, Active is rather more awkward.

The crossovers in the speakers are removed and replaced by purpose built ones. The new crossovers
are wired up either inbetween the pre and power amps or are built into the power amps.
This means that each drive unit in both speakers will need a separate amp.
So two stereo amps as in your case will be able to power a pair of two way speakers.
A pair of three way speakers will need 3 stereo power amps.
The reason for active speakers are that each amp (or half a stereo amp) will only power one drive unit
with an increase in clarity, power etc. These replacement active crossovers are designed for and will only work with the speakers that they are designed for. Also these speakers will only work with the amps that have the crossovers added. Separate cables will be needed from each power amp to each speaker unit.


This is not to be confused with 'active speakers' which have amps built into the speaker cabinet and are
supplied as a complete pair of amp/speakers!

I hope all this makes sense

Regards Andy

Thanks for the explanation. I can see this will be too complicated for my situation. The speakers are four way for a start and to be honest, as another member points out, I really don’t need any extra power, I was thinking about the stereo separation. Could damage the amps if vertical I think as not sure they are designed for mono / part mono.

I think I will get my 101 rebuilt from the ground up abs look at any enhancing modifications that are on offer.

Thanks to everyone who gave advice. Genuinely appreciated.

Cheers,

Chris.

 

[rabski]

As you're going to have two, there's no harm in trying.

Whether it will produce any 'improvement' beyond believing there is one, is a different matter. If one works really well, two are highly unlikely to be somehow 'better' and actually offer the potential to be slightly worse, as they will never be 100% matched.

It will at least put you in the position of having a spare, or of having one to sell.

 

[DomT]

As you're going to have two, there's no harm in trying.

Whether it will produce any 'improvement' beyond believing there is one, is a different matter. If one works really well, two are highly unlikely to be somehow 'better' and actually offer the potential to be slightly worse, as they will never be 100% matched.

It will at least put you in the position of having a spare, or of having one to sell.

I have no technical competence on this subject and so reading carefully as Marantz reference products have a bi-amping facility to use two identical Marantz integrated amps such as the PM11-S2. If it would not improve things I am wondering why Marantz included this facility.

I am interested in this subject as I am considering buying a second Audio Research D130 for my ATC SCM11 but seriously happy to save money if not a good idea.

 

[bencat]

I have Bi Amped a pair of passive Linn Sara 9 speakers . These were designed from the start under this revised model to have a proper split crossover for bi wiring and they showed it even just bi wired was an improvement on using single wires.

As I later then had two gain matched Quad 405 with Fidele Audio mods I tried them for bi amping . Firstly I did the horizontal bi amp with one 405 for the bass and the other for the Treble . This worked and sounded even better than the bi wired set up stronger bass and wider and deeper soundstage with more accurate imaging not something the Sara is noted for as it is a sealed Isobarick design and meantto be used hard or very close to a wall .

Then because it easy to do I tried Vertical bi amping with a 405 for each speaker with the right side used for the bass and the left side used for the treble . To my great surprise this was by far the best way to do this for these speakers . Control and bass speed was improved the fun factor of the speakers was still there but voices sounded more natural and just about all areas were better . So if your speakers have been designed to be bi wired and have not just had an extra set put on for the market (Harbeth do this and in my view always sound better single wired) then I think you will be pleased with the result .

I have to admit now that all of this improved the Sara sound quality but I was tempted to the dark side and my Sara's are now fully active still using the 405 amplifiers but without any passive crossover and a MiniDSP DDRC24 used as a Digital Cross Over , DSP (DIRAC Live) , DAC and pre volume . This is just like the best effects of the above but on steroids more lower bass , faster bass , more natural voices and instruments and much better imaging. It took me lots of work but in my view worth it . Given your speakers I would be very reluctant to make them active as it would prove to be both expensive and lots of work . But I would encourage you to use your Beard amps to bi amp . When you send them to whoever you use to service them ask them speciffically to gain match one amp with the other so that you will know this is one less thing to worry about .

 

[mac72]

I have no technical competence on this subject and so reading carefully as Marantz reference products have a bi-amping facility to use two identical Marantz integrated amps such as the PM11-S2. If it would not improve things I am wondering why Marantz included this facility.

To sell twice as many amplifiers

I am interested in this subject as I am considering buying a second Audio Research D130 for my ATC SCM11 but seriously happy to save money if not a good idea.

if D130 has no trouble driving them then save the money unless you want do horizontal bi-amping and apply correction to bass drivers

 

[rabski]

I have no technical competence on this subject and so reading carefully as Marantz reference products have a bi-amping facility to use two identical Marantz integrated amps such as the PM11-S2. If it would not improve things I am wondering why Marantz included this facility.

I am interested in this subject as I am considering buying a second Audio Research D130 for my ATC SCM11 but seriously happy to save money if not a good idea.

Why would they introduce it? The cynical reply is that it has the potential to sell more stuff. You'll find plenty of threads with the usual 'night and day improvement' sort of comments, so people want to try it. The related answer is that as people are potentially going to try it, it makes sense to offer the correct connections to try and stop people wiring it the wrong way and breaking things.

Sometimes more power overall is an improvement, because it gives more 'headroom'. However, common sense suggests that is only going to be advantageous if the original setup is somewhat marginal in terms of power requirements. The bass driver(s) in any cone speaker are going to require a shed-load more power than the treble. It gets a little more complex, in that the impedance curve means the load differs in some ways, but nevertheless, only a small fraction of the total power to drive a speaker is going to the treble units in a conventional cone-speaker setup. There are potential related benefits due to splitting the reactive load and its impact on an amplifier, but the extent of that is questionable.

The sensible advice is obviously to beg or borrow a second amp to try it, unless you aleady have two. And then to switch back after a while. Overall, if there is any improvement at all (and an improvement that is still apparent when you swap back to the original setup), the big question remains... You're going to have the cost of two amplifiers. How much more of an improvement would there be if you spent that total on a single, better one?