Booze n Fags,should it apply to audio?

[adam]

While watching the news the other day,I noticed they were talking about people buying cheap booze and cigs from other European countries,at a fraction of the costs of UK prices,this is of course exellent for the consumer,cheap prices,but a loss of taxes and small buisnesses suffering.

It was taking to the European court of law,where I believe they have said,if you want cheap booze,ciggies (not that I do personally)you have to go to the shop and get them,no buying of the internet.

So I thought,would this be good for Audio also?I think audio has sufferd because of the internet,as buyer this is fantastic,cheap AV amps,DVD players,plasmas,LCD,but I think a time has come when shops are going to turn around and say I'm not going to stock you products,why should I ?,and I think that will be a shame for people who like to see and feel and product before they buy.

There are now more companies clamping down on this,which personally I think is correct,that don't allow thier products to be discounted on the web or allowed to be sold outside of thier terrortories.Speaking to a customer about Linn yesterday and the standards they want at first hearing sounded a bit draconian,but on later thought,I thought thier strictness to be very sound in a way.

For example,I can't buy at trade,Onkyo,Yamaha,Denon,Pioneer,and even KEF allow it,which they never used to,what certain online sellers are selling for!!So I ask myself,what's the point,and have refused to display thier products in my shop,of course I am seeing this from a retail point of view,but I think in the long term the consumer will suffer too as I'm sure I'm not the only person who feels this way about companies who let thier products be sold so cheaply,into grey markets,not the correct user manual,no back up service from authorised repair centres.

Should the Audio industry take the stance the courts did on booze and fags?or should we get it as cheap as possible and say goodbye to the dealers to see the goods?This just doesn't apply to Audio,I see shops closing down around me all the time,due to the internet and big shopping centres taking thier buisness.

So pay a bit more and see the product and listen,or get it cheap and relie on reviews?

 

[Davewhityetagain]

adam wrote:

While watching the news the other day,I noticed they were talking about people buying cheap booze and cigs from other European countries,at a fraction of the costs of UK prices,this is of course exellent for the consumer,cheap prices,but a loss of taxes and small buisnesses suffering.It was taking to the European court of law,where I believe they have said,if you want cheap booze,ciggies (not that I do personally)you have to go to the shop and get them,no buying of the internet.

So I thought,would this be good for Audio also?I think audio has sufferd because of the internet,as buyer this is fantastic,cheap AV amps,DVD players,plasmas,LCD,but I think a time has come when shops are going to turn around and say I'm not going to stock you products,why should I ?,and I think that will be a shame for people who like to see and feel and product before they buy.

There are now more companies clamping down on this,which personally I think is correct,that don't allow thier products to be discounted on the web or allowed to be sold outside of thier terrortories.Speaking to a customer about Linn yesterday and the standards they want at first hearing sounded a bit draconian,but on later thought,I thought thier strictness to be very sound in a way.

For example,I can't buy at trade,Onkyo,Yamaha,Denon,Pioneer,and even KEF allow it,which they never used to,what certain online sellers are selling for!!So I ask myself,what's the point,and have refused to display thier products in my shop,of course I am seeing this from a retail point of view,but I think in the long term the consumer will suffer too as I'm sure I'm not the only person who feels this way about companies who let thier products be sold so cheaply,into grey markets,not the correct user manual,no back up service from authorised repair centres.

Should the Audio industry take the stance the courts did on booze and fags?or should we get it as cheap as possible and say goodbye to the dealers to see the goods?This just doesn't apply to Audio,I see shops closing down around me all the time,due to the internet and big shopping centres taking thier buisness.

So pay a bit more and see the product and listen,or get it cheap and relie on reviews?

interesting post but I do not see this as you do, for example you say

I see shops closing down around me all the time,due to the internet and big shopping centres taking thier buisness.

so which is it shops or internet taking the customers ?

in the UK there has been shops and companies going bust happens all the time

but there has been more than one shop started on the internet now with a "real" shop

for example both Walrus and Stone Audio started web only and both now have nice looking shops

any company be it web base or shop will only last if they deliver goods and service customers want

your post looks as if you have a chip on both shoulders

from your post its as if you think everything should be sold by small shops like yours a full rrp

the stance you want companies to take with regards discounts is wrong and might be against the law these days

if your finding things tight because of internet discounts, you have to give customers something more, and its in your power to do that

good service

 

[cjr]

Adam, totally different scenario, audio equipment or use of does not seriously damage your health, thus the taxation on it from the government is not directly tied to providing health care for people who use these "narcotics". Now I am not sticking up for the government here or taxation per se, but those 2 itmes, fags n booze are a world away from audio kit or gettingthebest deal you can.

Just a small point that should be made when it comes to fags n booze, they are not some harmless commodity, as such governements like bliars can tax the arse of them with some justification. Why not gear this discussion along the lines of cars, we (british hifi)were artificially kept at ridiculous levels of cost (enforced by what many people would say were/are greedy dealers), where our european on yank friends got a much better deal. Should we just keep paying over the odds for kit ? Certainly not me dude.

 

[The Strat]

cjr wrote:

Adam, totally different scenario, audio equipment or use of does not seriously damage your health,

Mrs Strat claims that it does - at least the volumes I play it at!!

 

[Emma Royd]

This amused me,

saw this on the net from two or three dealers,

Lyra Argo, New Low Price £795.00

Old Price was £800.00

And pound to a penny,I bet the New low priceis the old cartridge,not the "i" which is the same price as the old one,£800.00.

 

[adam]

Dave,the point I was trying to make was the box shifters who just shift stock,have no idea about audio,don't have a shop,they dont show the products,don't demo the products to customers,but can sell it cheaper than what a shop can buy it at,with that Ihave a problem,I can give the best service in the world,but if I can't buy the product at even at the price they are selling at why should I stock it?

I know all about service,I started my own buisness in the service industry when I was 18,i'm now 37 and the buisness still runs,that side of PR doesn't bother me in the slightest,what does bother me is that as I said cheap online selling will "maybe" mean that shops in the end wont bother to stock such products that are sold cheaply online.

 

[adam]

the stance you want companies to take with regards discounts is wrong and might be against the law these days

I know of one company in Spain,who have a shop and onlineshop,they had a product at a price that was too low,the distributer told them to remove it.

It may well be against the law,but if a distributer won't supply you,he wont supply you,regardless of what the law says.

 

[adam]

cjr wrote:

Adam, totally different scenario, audio equipment or use of does not seriously damage your health, thus the taxation on it from the government is not directly tied to providing health care for people who use these "narcotics". Now I am not sticking up for the government here or taxation per se, but those 2 itmes, fags n booze are a world away from audio kit or gettingthebest deal you can.Just a small point that should be made when it comes to fags n booze, they are not some harmless commodity, as such governements like bliars can tax the arse of them with some justification. Why not gear this discussion along the lines of cars, we (british hifi)were artificially kept at ridiculous levels of cost (enforced by what many people would say were/are greedy dealers), where our european on yank friends got a much better deal. Should we just keep paying over the odds for kit ? Certainly not me dude.

CJ,it depends on the brand I find here,the american kit is quite well priced,but anything from the UK costs a shell load more than the UK,some in some cases (audiowise)it's swings and roundabouts.

 

[cjr]

adam wrote:

what does bother me is that as I said cheap online selling will "maybe" mean that shops in the end wont bother to stock such products that are sold cheaply online.

Well taking a case in point Adam, look at Plasmas & LCDs, if "special" AV dealers had their way these would be sold with huge mark ups on them going straight into a dealers pockets,and themanufaccers would be "encouraged" not to sell to anyone else (ie acartel), I think the power the net had had on those items, is a breathe of fresh air (aswith manyaudio products) in fact I know John Lewis comepte very well in Plasma-LCD terms, when you add in the 5 year warranty, they are still a good deal cheaper than say Panasonic franchise dealerships. So if an outfit like JLs can manage and soak up lots of sales with plasmas & LCDs, why not "normal" dealers.

What exactly would you like to see ?, outfits on the net that sell cheaper, being taxed to level the playing field ? surely it is all about where you get your stock from ?

I think as many of us have been in this hobby for a long time, now what we want and how to get it cheaply, its not how dealers would want the market to be, but it is and you cant stop it, too late now, the advent of the internet had changed all that.

All IMHO of course.

 

[Davewhityetagain]

adam wrote:

Dave,the point I was trying to make was the box shifters who just shift stock,have no idea about audio,don't have a shop,they dont show the products,don't demo the products to customers,but can sell it cheaper than what a shop can buy it at,with that Ihave a problem,I can give the best service in the world,but if I can't buy the product at even at the price they are selling at why should I stock it?

I can think of shops and not just Richer Sounds that are just box shifters, I can think of plenty of web based shops that give better advice and service than shop based sellers

Yes some web based shops have the edge on running costs,

Your original post looks like a rant at web based dealers

Yes some are web based box shifters giving crap service

but plenty are not, you can not tar everyone with the same brush

(apart from wimp sub users)

 

[adam]

cjr wrote:

adam wrote:

what does bother me is that as I said cheap online selling will "maybe" mean that shops in the end wont bother to stock such products that are sold cheaply online.

Well taking a case in point Adam, look at Plasmas & LCDs, if "special" AV dealer had their way these would be sold with huge mark ups on them going straight into a delaers pockets,and the suppliers would be "encouraged" not to sell to anyone else (to keep a cartel going), g I think the power the net had had on those items, is a breathe of fresh air (as are manyaudio products) in fact I know John Lewis comepte very well in Plasma-LCD terms, when you add in the 5 year warranty, they are still a good deal cheaper than say Panasonic dealers. So if an outfit like JLs can manage and soak up lots of sales with plasmas & LCDs, why not "normal" dealers.

What exactly would you like to see ?, outfits on the net that sell cheaper, being taxed to level the playing field ? surely it is all about where you get your stock from ?

I think as many of us have been in this hobby for a long time, now what we want and how to get it cheaply, its not how dealers would want the market to be, but it is and you cant stop it, too late now, the advent of the internet had changed all that.

All IMHO of course.

I would think John Lewis is big enough to be able to do this,and has the buying power to compete with online sellers,it's the same in Spain,everyone is selling LCDs all competing against each other,which as the consumer your 100% correct,we all want things cheaper,but for me personally,I just see them as a waste of time,and not worth the hassle.

What would I like to see?I don't really know to be honest,as I don't have the answer,or the solution,as a consumer,great fantastic,cheap pricesas a dealer,I just wont stock thoes brands,it's cheaper for me to buy from the net,than it is the distributer,and to me,there is something wrong there.

 

[cjr]

Davewhityetagain wrote:

(apart from wimp sub users)

A very happy wimp sub user, unlike a mad box shifting fetishist like yourself Dave.

.

Go on you never know adding a sub may settle your box fetish.

PS I agree with your points to Adam.

 

[adam]

Davewhityetagain wrote:

Your original post looks like a rant at web based dealers

Yes some are web based box shifters giving crap service

Yes it is,I think it's fair to have a web based shop like I do,if you also have a shop to show the products.In spain you cannot work from home,you must have a premise to sell your goods.Dave there is crap service everywhere,I see it everyday,as well as good service.

 

[jon]

with booze and fags, the issue was taxation wasn't it - the UK authorities wanted to be able to charge the (higher) UK rate of tax on imports. IIRC, you can still import booze direct if you want to (don't some people buy fancy wine from France to import, when duty becomes less of an issue) but you have to pay the tax.

 

[Davewhityetagain]

cjr wrote:

Davewhityetagain wrote:

(apart from wimp sub users)

A very happy wimp sub user, unlike a mad box shifting fetishist like yourself Dave.

.

Go on you never know adding a sub may settle your box fetish.

PS I agree with your points to Adam.

you posted in the end of the year thread

I think 5 amps 7 cd players 2 transports and about ?? 5 sets of cables this year

the tuner rack and speakers of course the same

and only one turntable change this year (cutting down)

 

[dudywoxer]

cjr wrote:

adam wrote:

what does bother me is that as I said cheap online selling will "maybe" mean that shops in the end wont bother to stock such products that are sold cheaply online.

I think as many of us have been in this hobby for a long time, now what we want and how to get it cheaply, its not how dealers would want the market to be, but it is and you cant stop it, too late now, the advent of the internet had changed all that.

All IMHO of course.

How did those that have been in the game a long time get to know what they want though. Not by demoing at a online store thats for sure.

If it as all about price then fine- the internet will win, if not then it will not, but as some one once said about the populace of this country, we know the price of everything- and the value of nothing.

I think we will probably finish up with the brands that want a volume/price war selling on price and volume, using internet based outets(maybe the likes of denon-nad, and the others- such as Linn/Naim selling to dealers with sales area's-and not allowed to widley advertise at discount prices. (just selling all the ex-dem gear)

Given the number of pound stores that are around, and the mentality of UK shoppers I fear the internet will win.

When it has (does?) and all you can buy is cheaper mass produced gear, the second hand champions will all be bitching that their source of product has gone.

The other possibilty I suppose is that the makers open 5-6 showrooms up and down the country, that do not sell, just demo, you then buy online from their direct retail arm.

 

[Alex A]

adam wrote:

While watching the news the other day,I noticed they were talking about people buying cheap booze and cigs from other European countries,at a fraction of the costs of UK prices,this is of course exellent for the consumer,cheap prices,but a loss of taxes and small buisnesses suffering.It was taking to the European court of law,where I believe they have said,if you want cheap booze,ciggies (not that I do personally)you have to go to the shop and get them,no buying of the internet.

So I thought,would this be good for Audio also?I think audio has sufferd because of the internet,as buyer this is fantastic,cheap AV amps,DVD players,plasmas,LCD,but I think a time has come when shops are going to turn around and say I'm not going to stock you products,why should I ?,and I think that will be a shame for people who like to see and feel and product before they buy.

1) You can buy booze and fags on the internet in the UK, at very similar prices to the local off lisence, because you pay the same tax. What the judgement prevented was ordering booze and fags from the continent and paying the local duty rather than UK duty on the stuff. People have been allowed for some time to goto France, buy as much alcohol as they can possibly justify for personal use, and drive back with it, no import tax or anything. The issue was that they shouldn't actually have to turn up in person with a van to get these prices.

2) hi-fi is completely different. When you buy on the internet the seller is incurring the same tax (VAT) and import duty as any seller. Most of these places in the UK at least (Superfi, Richer Sounds) do offer full warranty on the goods and have shops as well as their internet sites/call centres where you can take the goods in case they're faulty.

3) Why should all hi-fi be much more expensive just because some people want to have a touchy feel first. Not seeing/hearing goods first is often a mistake, but for most people they will be blissfully ignorant, and who are we to impose on the consumer how and why they must purchase a product. If enough people feel that they must hear/see products first, then the demand for shop retail will always be there. But there will always be knobs who listen in your shop and then buy stuff cheap elsewhere. But as you note, this doesn't apply to most mid-high end kit, and never has.

 

[Alex A]

adam wrote:

What would I like to see?I don't really know to be honest,as I don't have the answer,or the solution,as a consumer,great fantastic,cheap pricesas a dealer,I just wont stock thoes brands,it's cheaper for me to buy from the net,than it is the distributer,and to me,there is something wrong there.

Then your problem is with the distributor, not with the internet seller, or the law.

On a sidenote, Sound and Vision in Bolton, who used to be an AV orientated independant hi-fi shop took the plunge and invested heavilily in the plasma/LCD market. They sell on the internet and operate their own warehouse now. As a local independant shop, their prices are usually the lowest in the country, and their share of the plasma/LCD market, i suspect, pretty massive.

Fierce competition and the local retailer are not incompatible.

 

[The Hifi Gallery]

we looked in to AV, however some internet box shifters can sell it cheaper than we can buy it, whose fault is that? I bought my lcd panel off the net, from a UK company, who now no longer trade, what happens when I need a warrantly claim?

No such thing as a free lunch, you get what you pay for, I laugh at some who think dealers are making a killing, you have to be joking, we make a living, but what's wrong with that, do these same folk give a discount of their services, ie, "Ok boss, I have been working for you for the last 4 years, you can cut my pay by 20% for being a loyal employer", jeez some of you are so hypocritical you make me laugh, talk about parochial, take your blinkers off and see the bigger picture, commerce makes the world go round, Small minded folks who can't see beyond their nose are the problem, IMHO, no better than childrens mentality.

Edit these are often the same folk who buy second hand off the net, then sell on at a profit!!!!! pot, kettle, black?