Linn Owners

Dealer visit, lack of bass, space optimisation, virtual tunedem, listening position

akamatsu

Michael
Wammer Plus
Oct 9, 2018
7,220
8,109
183
Point Roberts, WA, USA (Vancouver)
AKA
Michael
HiFi Trade?
  1. No
Back in October, a local dealer visited me and my hifi system. I had really wanted someone knowledgeable to have a listen as I've been operating in an echo chamber with pretty much just myself providing feedback on the sound quality. The first thing he commented on was weak bass. We then turned off space optimisation. The result was more to his liking, but I thought things were too out of control. But his point about the lack of bass was made as I was able to hear what he was talking about as we listened to tracks that he was familiar with, and has heard on many other systems. We didn't do any adjustments as we were just too busy listening to music. After a couple of hours, he was on his way, and I was left with getting the bass level up closer to what we heard without SO engaged.

We spoke on the phone the following day. He made the comment that he thought my speakers were already in their ideal location as it sounded so good with SO off. I proceeded to revisit virtual tunedem and the ideal speaker location. I had determined the ideal using the W.A.S.P method. This placed the ideal speaker location at 1.4m from the front wall, while the practical location is 65 cm. I created ideal speaker locations at 70cm, 75cm. 80cm and 90cm. I ended up homing in on 73 cm for the ideal locations. So all is good at this point. I got the boost in bass that I didn't know I needed, and the refinement and detail that space optimisation provides was back. All is good.

At this point I have to say that in the past I've recommended the W.A.S.P. method for determining ideal location. I'm reversing that recommendation now for Akubariks. If Akubariks are within Linn's recommendation for distance from front wall, they may be close to their ideal locations. At least, this is what I arrived at.

Recently, someone posted elsewhere about distance between speakers being 83% of the distance from listener to speaker. I tried this and rather liked it. So I adjusted the listening position forward to establish the 83% ratio. Then, I adjusted listener location in SO. All is sounding good at this point. But I thought I'd better revisit virtual tunedem. I went through the same process as before. But this time, an ideal location within a centimeter of the practical sounded best. So I tried "Speakers are in their ideal location." This ended up sounding the best.

So I'm now enjoying improved resolution and more bass, which has really enhanced the musical engagement. It seems that having the ideal speaker location too far into the room was attenuating the bass too much. Also, if it sounds good with SO off, perhaps the speaker locations are already ideal.

All of this should only affect boundary optimisation. But, like time of flight optimisation, boundary optimisation has a big impact on sound quality. It's not just about room modes.

One more thought; it seems that selecting "Speakers in practical location, don't know ideal location" might disengage boundary optimisation. I'm thinking that having practical and ideal locations being different by a mere centimeter would be a better choice with ideal location being determined by virtual tunedem.
 

rjinaz86323

Wammer Plus
Wammer Plus
Jul 27, 2021
265
304
118
76
Chino Valley, AZ
AKA
Rick
HiFi Trade?
  1. No
I have mentioned before that LMC tuned my system based strictly on what sounds the best. No magic formulae and no SO. Is it possible that it could sound better? I don't know, but for now I am happy and am leaving it alone.
 
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Moomintroll

Fictional Character - not to be taken literally
Wammer
May 20, 2014
3,516
4,525
148
HiFi Trade?
  1. No
One more thought; it seems that selecting "Speakers in practical location, don't know ideal location" might disengage boundary optimisation.
No, don’t think it does. Sounds like you’ve been having fun.

’troll
 
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DiggyGun

DiggyGun
Wammer Plus
Jul 15, 2020
545
756
148
UK
HiFi Trade?
  1. No
Back in October, a local dealer visited me and my hifi system. I had really wanted someone knowledgeable to have a listen as I've been operating in an echo chamber with pretty much just myself providing feedback on the sound quality. The first thing he commented on was weak bass. We then turned off space optimisation. The result was more to his liking, but I thought things were too out of control. But his point about the lack of bass was made as I was able to hear what he was talking about as we listened to tracks that he was familiar with, and has heard on many other systems. We didn't do any adjustments as we were just too busy listening to music. After a couple of hours, he was on his way, and I was left with getting the bass level up closer to what we heard without SO engaged.

We spoke on the phone the following day. He made the comment that he thought my speakers were already in their ideal location as it sounded so good with SO off. I proceeded to revisit virtual tunedem and the ideal speaker location. I had determined the ideal using the W.A.S.P method. This placed the ideal speaker location at 1.4m from the front wall, while the practical location is 65 cm. I created ideal speaker locations at 70cm, 75cm. 80cm and 90cm. I ended up homing in on 73 cm for the ideal locations. So all is good at this point. I got the boost in bass that I didn't know I needed, and the refinement and detail that space optimisation provides was back. All is good.

At this point I have to say that in the past I've recommended the W.A.S.P. method for determining ideal location. I'm reversing that recommendation now for Akubariks. If Akubariks are within Linn's recommendation for distance from front wall, they may be close to their ideal locations. At least, this is what I arrived at.

Recently, someone posted elsewhere about distance between speakers being 83% of the distance from listener to speaker. I tried this and rather liked it. So I adjusted the listening position forward to establish the 83% ratio. Then, I adjusted listener location in SO. All is sounding good at this point. But I thought I'd better revisit virtual tunedem. I went through the same process as before. But this time, an ideal location within a centimeter of the practical sounded best. So I tried "Speakers are in their ideal location." This ended up sounding the best.

So I'm now enjoying improved resolution and more bass, which has really enhanced the musical engagement. It seems that having the ideal speaker location too far into the room was attenuating the bass too much. Also, if it sounds good with SO off, perhaps the speaker locations are already ideal.

All of this should only affect boundary optimisation. But, like time of flight optimisation, boundary optimisation has a big impact on sound quality. It's not just about room modes.

One more thought; it seems that selecting "Speakers in practical location, don't know ideal location" might disengage boundary optimisation. I'm thinking that having practical and ideal locations being different by a mere centimeter would be a better choice with ideal location being determined by virtual tunedem.

When the dealer set up my Klimax DS3 / Katalyst, he tuned in SO for me.

However, he also advised that the standard SO setting is often felt to be bass light. He did another SO setting, this time with the bass and treble at 50% each.

I did notice the difference between them and went with the 50/50 SO setting, which to me sounded more detailed and controlled.

Currently, no change since then.

DG…
 

Lawrence001

Mega Wammer
Wammer
Jul 21, 2015
5,957
3,523
168
London
AKA
Lawrence
HiFi Trade?
  1. No
I'm surprised a Linn dealer turned off SO rather than optimising it. I thought they had to buy in to the whole Linn thing to sell them.
 

akamatsu

Michael
Wammer Plus
Oct 9, 2018
7,220
8,109
183
Point Roberts, WA, USA (Vancouver)
AKA
Michael
HiFi Trade?
  1. No
No, don’t think it does. Sounds like you’ve been having fun.

’troll
Had a lot of fun, especially listening to the result. It all sounds more "correct" now.

I'm not knowledgeable enough of boundary optimisation to figure out why or why it wouldn't be engaged with the setting. But I thought I heard a difference, so I thought it might be disengaged.
 

akamatsu

Michael
Wammer Plus
Oct 9, 2018
7,220
8,109
183
Point Roberts, WA, USA (Vancouver)
AKA
Michael
HiFi Trade?
  1. No
When the dealer set up my Klimax DS3 / Katalyst, he tuned in SO for me.

However, he also advised that the standard SO setting is often felt to be bass light. He did another SO setting, this time with the bass and treble at 50% each.

I did notice the difference between them and went with the 50/50 SO setting, which to me sounded more detailed and controlled.

Currently, no change since then.

DG…
I'm not familiar with the 50/50 setting in SO.
 

Mr Kandid

Well-Known Wammer
Wammer
May 29, 2019
1,787
3,084
148
HiFi Trade?
  1. No
I’ll await the incoming with this comment.:eek:
The worst big system I’ve heard on many occasions is the Klimax dem system and rooms at the Linn factory it’s dire and gutless and has real fatigue.
It shouldn’t be but it’s abysmal.
I heard their best Akurate system at the time in the next room and it was ok then someone asked if they could hear it without SO
as soon as it fired up everyone was clapping.
It trounced the Klimax setup with all its gimmicks in place.
Just saying

🤭
8001006C-96AE-4BF8-9C54-72B1A05B8B3F.jpeg
 

Ben Webster

System doesn‘t matter - if you have mine
Wammer
Dec 16, 2019
1,421
1
2,436
148
Frankfurt a.M. 🇩🇪
HiFi Trade?
  1. No
I’ll await the incoming with this comment.:eek:
The worst big system I’ve heard on many occasions is the Klimax dem system and rooms at the Linn factory it’s dire and gutless and has real fatigue.
It shouldn’t be but it’s abysmal.
I heard their best Akurate system at the time in the next room and it was ok then someone asked if they could hear it without SO
as soon as it fired up everyone was clapping.
It trounced the Klimax setup with all its gimmicks in place.
Just saying

🤭
Most Klimax systems have two problems: 350 and SO.
I’ll await the incoming with this comment, too 😜.
 

LSPC

LSPC
Wammer
Sep 19, 2020
247
302
83
Poole,Dorset
AKA
Lee.
HiFi Trade?
  1. No
After tunedem set up and then SO and then endless chopping and changing I find very little difference with SO on but prefer it with no SO. Hopefully I'm lucky and my room is an easy room that doesn't need SO assistance and I'm happy with the sound :)and that's all any of us really want (y)
 

akamatsu

Michael
Wammer Plus
Oct 9, 2018
7,220
8,109
183
Point Roberts, WA, USA (Vancouver)
AKA
Michael
HiFi Trade?
  1. No
After tunedem set up and then SO and then endless chopping and changing I find very little difference with SO on but prefer it with no SO. Hopefully I'm lucky and my room is an easy room that doesn't need SO assistance and I'm happy with the sound :)and that's all any of us really want (y)
Since you have an Exakt system you would be using SO+, which includes "time of flight optimisation." I find this feature to bring so much precision, resulting in more music. It does require a very precise setup to work to its full potential. This has been my experience.
 
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LSPC

LSPC
Wammer
Sep 19, 2020
247
302
83
Poole,Dorset
AKA
Lee.
HiFi Trade?
  1. No
Yes quite possibly true as I have not had SO set up by a Linn dealer so I maybe missing out but as they say ignorance is bliss :sneaky: .Think I might have to have a word with my dealer of choice unfortunately he's some 300 miles away, and my local one is not my preference unfortunately . Might be able to share my SO settings with him through the Linn app and see what he recommends.
 
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Make it SO

Make it SO
Wammer
Nov 9, 2018
188
210
48
North Devon
AKA
Jean-Luc
HiFi Trade?
  1. No
The question I think we should sometimes ask ourselves is, do we think the music is more enjoyable or is the system sounding better? They aren't the same thing.

High frequency waves have a higher wavelength than low frequency ones and travel further in the same amount of time. So, higher frequencies arrive at our ears faster than lower ones. Linn uses ToF adjustments in SO to correct this so the linear phase output from each individual drive unit arrives at the listening position at the same time. To calculate and remedy the delays, SO needs to know the position of each speaker and the position of the listener relative to the speakers. SO adds this information to the correction algorithm along with the known position of the drive units in the speakers.

When I listen to live music, I must experience the same issue of higher frequencies arriving faster than lower ones ... but it doesn't make any difference to my enjoyment. I'm not even aware of it. We've experienced this since we were embryos and our hearing brain deals with it for us. Maybe music sounds more like I expect it to sound with SO off because it makes a correction to ToF that I've already made naturally?

If I could get my speakers into anything like an ideal position and wasn't bothered by annoying room modes, I'd turn SO off altogether. For me its a useful tool when listening to some recordings because my speakers have to be close to a front wall and I have lousy acoustics. I can accept the odd boomy bass note on some recordings with SO off but on others I can't bear to listen to them. At least I can do that with SO switched on for those recordings.

I'm just not convinced I need 'another' ToF correction.
 

akamatsu

Michael
Wammer Plus
Oct 9, 2018
7,220
8,109
183
Point Roberts, WA, USA (Vancouver)
AKA
Michael
HiFi Trade?
  1. No
The question I think we should sometimes ask ourselves is, do we think the music is more enjoyable or is the system sounding better? They aren't the same thing.

High frequency waves have a higher wavelength than low frequency ones and travel further in the same amount of time. So, higher frequencies arrive at our ears faster than lower ones. Linn uses ToF adjustments in SO to correct this so the linear phase output from each individual drive unit arrives at the listening position at the same time. To calculate and remedy the delays, SO needs to know the position of each speaker and the position of the listener relative to the speakers. SO adds this information to the correction algorithm along with the known position of the drive units in the speakers.

When I listen to live music, I must experience the same issue of higher frequencies arriving faster than lower ones ... but it doesn't make any difference to my enjoyment. I'm not even aware of it. We've experienced this since we were embryos and our hearing brain deals with it for us. Maybe music sounds more like I expect it to sound with SO off because it makes a correction to ToF that I've already made naturally?

If I could get my speakers into anything like an ideal position and wasn't bothered by annoying room modes, I'd turn SO off altogether. For me its a useful tool when listening to some recordings because my speakers have to be close to a front wall and I have lousy acoustics. I can accept the odd boomy bass note on some recordings with SO off but on others I can't bear to listen to them. At least I can do that with SO switched on for those recordings.

I'm just not convinced I need 'another' ToF correction.
From the Linn Website on Exakt technology:


Natural sound needs perfect timing​


When you listen to a Linn system, it’s striking just how natural it sounds. It’s as if you’re listening to the real musicians, right there in front of you. The most natural sound available can only be achieved with perfect timing.
When you hear an instrument being played live, the elements that make up every note—including all the harmonics—arrive at your ear at the same time.
Sounds simple, but the fact is that no speaker system has ever been able to synchronise these elements accurately: until now.
Our systems feature Exakt technology, which ensures the perfect time alignment of every part of every note, so now you can enjoy the same natural sound that was recorded by the artist.
 

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