DIY Beginner - Tannoy - 6/6.5 Inch Dual Concentric Drivers

[Zaiden]

Let's start this off by saying, I have no clue what I'm doing. Also there are no crossovers just yet. I've heard MainlyTannoy is the person on eBay to ask about Tannoy crossovers.

I've been thinking how I want to go about this.

1. How do we measure speaker driver size? It's one of these awkwardly shaped ones: https://www.picclickimg.com/d/l400/...r-TANNOY-6-dual-concentric-speakers-8-ohm.jpg

2. I have no means of measuring the drivers, which will make things difficult - impossible too relating to crossovers. But I'm operating on the assumption I will get this sorted someway or another in the next few months, and that Tannoy drivers will have a distinct quality/characteristic that means there is a fairly optimal way of going about the enclosure:

1) Upscaled Tannoy Autograph Mini enclosures (The original drivers for these are about 4 inches): https://www.audioaffair.co.uk/blog/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/Autograph-Mini-Enclosure.png
2) Classic Golden Ratio: http://frugal-phile.com/boxlib/P10free/CGR-dPlu-Ken11-0v82-plan-300716.pdf
3) Pensil: http://frugal-phile.com/boxlib/pensils/PensilA11-P11.pdf

I'm open to any suggestions. My plan is to start laying out foundations for the project and to actualise it sometime this summer. Assume I have the woodworking equipment/capability on hand + electronic know-how outside of measuring driver frequency response.

 

[bencat]

Would strongly suggest you first decide exactly what sort of Tannoy type speaker you want to make as this will then define the size and model of Tannoy driver you need . Modern Driver such as those you have linked to sound very different to the older Dual Concentrics used in the likes of the Red / Gold Monitor types . The cost for drivers is very different . I am not a huge Tannoy fan but do see the appeal of the older models. If it was me and I had the skills (which I most certainly do not) The I would be looking for a 10 - 12 inch Dual Concentric driver matched to the appropriate older version cabinet . However I would do away with the Passive Crossover and switch to something like the MiniDSP DDRC 24 which will allow you to tune your own Digital Crossover and then also offer DIRAC Live room DSP correction as well . I think this would offer an immense sound that could be easily and quickly adjusted to exactly what you want to hear. You could also consider using more modern Tannoy concentrics in smaller 8 - 6 Inch sizes and then add a similar size Mid/Bass driver to cover the lower register . The only issue with this is the speaker would become a three way and that would need additional amplifiers and Digital CR to cover the addition . A Three Way in my case sounds much better than the original two way (KEF 103 Reference not Tannoys) but I am not as sure the Tannoys would respond in the same way . Tony one of the Mods on here can help with that as he has done this with Tannoy drivers in his speakers.

 

[Tony_J]

Let's start this off by saying, I have no clue what I'm doing. Also there are no crossovers just yet. I've heard MainlyTannoy is the person on eBay to ask about Tannoy crossovers.

I've been thinking how I want to go about this.

1. How do we measure speaker driver size? It's one of these awkwardly shaped ones: https://www.picclickimg.com/d/l400/...r-TANNOY-6-dual-concentric-speakers-8-ohm.jpg

2. I have no means of measuring the drivers, which will make things difficult - impossible too relating to crossovers. But I'm operating on the assumption I will get this sorted someway or another in the next few months, and that Tannoy drivers will have a distinct quality/characteristic that means there is a fairly optimal way of going about the enclosure:

1) Upscaled Tannoy Autograph Mini enclosures (The original drivers for these are about 4 inches): https://www.audioaffair.co.uk/blog/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/Autograph-Mini-Enclosure.png
2) Classic Golden Ratio: http://frugal-phile.com/boxlib/P10free/CGR-dPlu-Ken11-0v82-plan-300716.pdf
3) Pensil: http://frugal-phile.com/boxlib/pensils/PensilA11-P11.pdf

I'm open to any suggestions. My plan is to start laying out foundations for the project and to actualise it sometime this summer. Assume I have the woodworking equipment/capability on hand + electronic know-how outside of measuring driver frequency response.

I went a similar route a few years ago, having acquired a pair of used Tannoy 8" DC drivers that were intended to be mounted as in-wall speakers. They had passive crossovers attached, but as I was planning to go down the active route, those got discarded in favour of a miniDSP 2X4HD (initially) that I later upgraded to a DDRC-24 (to add Dirac capability). The initial build was a 2-way in a ported standmount box ~25 litres - very much guesswork at this point as (like you) I had no idea what the T-S parameters of the drivers were. Later I obtained a DATS V2 which allows you to measure these parameters - a worthwhile investment if you plan to get serious about DIY. That initial build was pretty good considering - and I took it to the Kegworth show along with a second pair of actives I had been working on. However, I was never happy with the bass extension (or lack of it) that I was getting from the Tannoys, so a second iteration found them installed in a larger floorstander cab (~45 litres) with the DC driver limited to mids and treble duties, and pairs of (used) Tannoy 8" bass units added to provide everything below 300 Hz, and a second miniDSP 2X4 added to split one pair of outputs from the DDRC-24 unit to give a 3-way crossover. Those speakers are still doing good service as my "development" system in the study/workshop and sound pretty good to my ear. I've just acquired a pair of unused Tannoy 4" DC drivers (the ones used in the current version of Autograph Mini) which I plan to stick in a rough-and-ready box so I can substitute them for the 8" DC units to see how they perform. If they sound promising I plan to do a "proper" 3-way floorstander build for them, probably using non-Tannoy bass units this time.

Anyhow, there's a thread that documents how the current Tannoy build evolved, here:

https://www.hifiwigwam.com/forum/threads/tannoy-8-dual-concentric-active-build.85715/

I would suggest (initially) getting to grips with one or other of the speaker modelling packages that are out there to help you design a suitable cab. You do need the T-S parameters for the drive (not the HF unit - that is sealed so isn't affected by the cabs) - you may be able to track down the params on the Internet if you have the model number, or you could just bite the bullet and buy a DATS - they come up on eBay from time to time. It is also possible to measure the T-S parameters using the REW software package plus a few components, if you are handy with a soldering iron. The two packages I have used most are Basta! and WinISD. There's a database of drivers here:

http://www.loudspeakerdatabase.com/

which may prove useful if it has your drivers in it - you can download T-S params for use in those two packages direct from the site which cuts out a bit of the learning curve.

You will almost certainly have to get to grips with REW at some point to get an idea of how the speakers are performing - and for that you will need a measuring mic, such as the miniDSP UMIC-1. REW is somewhat bewildering to start with, but is a very valuable resource for this stuff, so worth sticking at it.

Feel free to come back with follow-up questions - there are a bunch of us in the Wam that have been there & will be happy to help.

 

[Zaiden]

Modern Driver such as those you have linked to sound very different to the older Dual Concentrics used in the likes of the Red / Gold Monitor types . The cost for drivers is very different .

I've not heard older or modern Tannoys so can't really speak about the distinction between their styles. I've more or less heard that the Tannoy Prestige Autograph Mini are sublime smaller factor speakers for their price point.

However I would do away with the Passive Crossover and switch to something like the MiniDSP DDRC 24 which will allow you to tune your own Digital Crossover and then also offer DIRAC Live room DSP correction as well.

Have to say this feels quite ironic. I believe Mr TonyJ gave me some stern words earlier this week over a MiniDSP sales post.

You could also consider using more modern Tannoy concentrics in smaller 8 - 6 Inch sizes and then add a similar size Mid/Bass driver to cover the lower register . The only issue with this is the speaker would become a three way and that would need additional amplifiers and Digital CR to cover the addition . A Three Way in my case sounds much better than the original two way

I believe this particular driver was originally purposed as a ceiling speaker. Regarding lower register, looking to either run the speakers in my bedroom or the conservatory. My only concern is that family/the neighbours aren't going to appreciate something with heavy vibrations - which is why I've been providing single driver enclosures. Is this something the inclusion of a MiniDSP would help address?

I should also mention I was looking at this as being a Work-In-Progress type of thing, where I start off from fairly humble beginnings (I'm not quite ready to start sinking money into an endeavor where I lack skills and don't possess a clear understanding of how likely satisfaction at the end would be) and work on augmenting things depending on additional disposable income/free time.

 

[bencat]

@Yubisaki_Milk_Tea You have outlined much more about what you want and given the use you are going to make of these speakers when finished I think a Two way unit (i.e. in this case a single dual concentric driver per cabinet ) would be the way to go as bass extension would not go down well for your home life.

In that case then a 8 or 6 inch drive unit would be fine Tannoy have been making Dual Concentric drivers for many years and often have them included in one of their ranges such as the below . There were also as per Tony's drivers made for other uses .

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/234381593078?hash=item36923b49f6:g:FGEAAOSwJ2th6cFO
Now a simple way to progress would be to buy something like the above speaker and then use the Drivers for your project . You could then make a cabinet design based on the tannoy prestige model you like but the dimensions would need to be adjusted to suit the drivers I would suggest possibly a little larger than the prestige model . As you are likely to be using these speakers at low levels then I would be even more inclined to an Active as they are easier and in my view more satisfying to listen to at low levels with better detail and imaging . Many passive speakers need to be played at a certain level before they open up and show their qualities this does not seem to be the same when active .

 

[Zaiden]

@bencat , @Tony_J , your assistance thus far has been greatly appreciated. If either of you need help from a volunteer to supervise/run your audio stalls, let me know and I would be happy to give my time of day to help out.

 

[diceman]

I'm playing aroudn with some similar ideas with the old style Autogrpah mini drive units and some D700 10".

The main thing that you need to consider with Tannoy cross-overs is that the tweeter has a wave-guide provided by the tulip and the bass cone and as such the tweeter output rises with lowering frequency at 6 dB/octave. The typical way to adjust for this is to use staggered cross-over frequencies, bass say at 12 dB/octave @ 1.0-1.5 kHz and tweeter at 6dB/octave @ 6kHz-8kHz.

You can kind of see how the tweeter response rises from TonyJs thread he linked to and as per the plot shown below. DIRAC allows this to be dealt with or you can do it by adopting staggered cross-overs.

You can pick up the basic miniDSP used for around £60-£80 which will just do the cross-over and you'll have to use staggered cross-over design.

 

[diceman]

PS - most of my stuff so far is based on the 1" tulip tweeter so the smaller 3/4" used in the smaller drive units I suspect will increase the x-over frequency to 10-12kHz?

The larger the bass cone diameter the lower frequency the waveguide is effective to (bigger cone = lower cut-off frquency of the waveguide) so a small 4" cone will only increase output down to around 2-3kHz and then drop off whereas a large 15" cone will extend the tweeter down to around 1 kHz.

 

[Zaiden]

I'm playing aroudn with some similar ideas with the old style Autogrpah mini drive units and some D700 10".

The main thing that you need to consider with Tannoy cross-overs is that the tweeter has a wave-guide provided by the tulip and the bass cone and as such the tweeter output rises with lowering frequency at 6 dB/octave. The typical way to adjust for this is to use staggered cross-over frequencies, bass say at 12 dB/octave @ 1.0-1.5 kHz and tweeter at 6dB/octave @ 6kHz-8kHz.

You can kind of see how the tweeter response rises from TonyJs thread he linked to and as per the plot shown below. DIRAC allows this to be dealt with or you can do it by adopting staggered cross-overs.

You can pick up the basic miniDSP used for around £60-£80 which will just do the cross-over and you'll have to use staggered cross-over design.

Sorry to necro this thread.

I've sold the original drivers that are subject of this post on eBay, and nabbed a pair of Tannoy Prestige Autograph Mini drivers instead.

Would this data sheet represent the Tannoy Prestige Autograph Mini? And I take it you would recommend active?

 

[Zaiden]

I went a similar route a few years ago, having acquired a pair of used Tannoy 8" DC drivers that were intended to be mounted as in-wall speakers. They had passive crossovers attached, but as I was planning to go down the active route, those got discarded in favour of a miniDSP 2X4HD (initially) that I later upgraded to a DDRC-24 (to add Dirac capability). The initial build was a 2-way in a ported standmount box ~25 litres - very much guesswork at this point as (like you) I had no idea what the T-S parameters of the drivers were. Later I obtained a DATS V2 which allows you to measure these parameters - a worthwhile investment if you plan to get serious about DIY. That initial build was pretty good considering - and I took it to the Kegworth show along with a second pair of actives I had been working on. However, I was never happy with the bass extension (or lack of it) that I was getting from the Tannoys, so a second iteration found them installed in a larger floorstander cab (~45 litres) with the DC driver limited to mids and treble duties, and pairs of (used) Tannoy 8" bass units added to provide everything below 300 Hz, and a second miniDSP 2X4 added to split one pair of outputs from the DDRC-24 unit to give a 3-way crossover. Those speakers are still doing good service as my "development" system in the study/workshop and sound pretty good to my ear. I've just acquired a pair of unused Tannoy 4" DC drivers (the ones used in the current version of Autograph Mini) which I plan to stick in a rough-and-ready box so I can substitute them for the 8" DC units to see how they perform. If they sound promising I plan to do a "proper" 3-way floorstander build for them, probably using non-Tannoy bass units this time.

Anyhow, there's a thread that documents how the current Tannoy build evolved, here:

https://www.hifiwigwam.com/forum/threads/tannoy-8-dual-concentric-active-build.85715/

I would suggest (initially) getting to grips with one or other of the speaker modelling packages that are out there to help you design a suitable cab. You do need the T-S parameters for the drive (not the HF unit - that is sealed so isn't affected by the cabs) - you may be able to track down the params on the Internet if you have the model number, or you could just bite the bullet and buy a DATS - they come up on eBay from time to time. It is also possible to measure the T-S parameters using the REW software package plus a few components, if you are handy with a soldering iron. The two packages I have used most are Basta! and WinISD. There's a database of drivers here:

http://www.loudspeakerdatabase.com/

which may prove useful if it has your drivers in it - you can download T-S params for use in those two packages direct from the site which cuts out a bit of the learning curve.

You will almost certainly have to get to grips with REW at some point to get an idea of how the speakers are performing - and for that you will need a measuring mic, such as the miniDSP UMIC-1. REW is somewhat bewildering to start with, but is a very valuable resource for this stuff, so worth sticking at it.

Feel free to come back with follow-up questions - there are a bunch of us in the Wam that have been there & will be happy to help.

How did the Tannoy Autograph Mini drivers sound? Would you have a data sheet for them? I ended up selling the OG pair at the top of this post and nabbing a pair of these for myself.

 

[Zaiden]

@diceman , if you don't mind me asking, how can I tell if I have the old style or the new style autograph mini drivers?

 

[Tony_J]

How did the Tannoy Autograph Mini drivers sound? Would you have a data sheet for them? I ended up selling the OG pair at the top of this post and nabbing a pair of these for myself.

Haven't had a chance to fire them up yet. I've built a couple of boxes to house them for testing but other things have intervened (long non-hifi story). Hopefully I will finish the boxes off soon and I can insert them in place if the 8" DC drivers to test things out. If they sound promising I will do a "proper" build in due course.

I don't have a datasheet but I do have a DATS test kit that allows me to analyse drivers.

 

[diceman]

@diceman , if you don't mind me asking, how can I tell if I have the old style or the new style autograph mini drivers?

What is the cone made of? The original were paper and the later are shiny and look to be plastic.
Early

Late

 

[diceman]

Sorry to necro this thread.

I've sold the original drivers that are subject of this post on eBay, and nabbed a pair of Tannoy Prestige Autograph Mini drivers instead.

Would this data sheet represent the Tannoy Prestige Autograph Mini? And I take it you would recommend active?

I don't have a datasheet and I haven't measured the drive-unit raw response yet but here is the DATS analysis.

 

[Tony_J]

What is the cone made of? The original were paper and the later are shiny and look to be plastic.
Early

Late

Mine have paper cones.

 

[diceman]

Mine too, I suspect we all purchased them off the same guy, makes you wonder where he got them from!

 

[Tony_J]

Mine too, I suspect we all purchased them off the same guy, makes you wonder where he got them from!

Indeed! Having said that, I prefer the look of the paper cones anyway.

 

[Zaiden]

Mine too, I suspect we all purchased them off the same guy, makes you wonder where he got them from!

I didn't purchase off the same guy. But I'm quite sure the person I purchased from purchased from that guy.

My guess is he purchased directly from Tannoy for replacement parts, stating he had issues with the driver/his customer had issues with the driver.

 

[Zaiden]

I haven't the foggiest of where to start. These drivers look small and dinky.

Questions are as follows:

1. Where to start in terms of enclosure?
2. Where to start in terms of crossovers? Is MainlyTannoy the person to talk to?
3. What would an active setup entail? Would I need to purchase separate amplification to build into an enclosure?

Plan as is, assuming active ends up being too much hassle, is to use these for my desktop setup with a small and cheap tube amplifier. I'll find a wooden enclosure and see if I can come up with a DIY crossover/commission one from MainlyTannoy on eBay.

 

[TheFlash]

Now a simple way to progress would be to buy something like the above speaker and then use the Drivers for your project . You could then make a cabinet design based on the tannoy prestige model you like but the dimensions would need to be adjusted to suit the drivers I would suggest possibly a little larger than the prestige model . As you are likely to be using these speakers at low levels then I would be even more inclined to an Active as they are easier and in my view more satisfying to listen to at low levels with better detail and imaging . Many passive speakers need to be played at a certain level before they open up and show their qualities this does not seem to be the same when active .

Well someone has to ask (and not just to you, Andrew!)... why would one wish to take such a speaker and repurpose the drivers? In the hope of rectifying the (perceived) shortcomings of the original speaker through different cabinet design? And/or different crossover design?

It feels like there is as much to get wrong here as to get right!