Long or Short Speaker/interconnects?

Speedskater

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For most loudspeakers it's about total resistance rather than R and loop inductance.  But for some (very nice) loudspeakers, that have high frequency impedance's below 0.5 Ohm, loop inductance is very important. (speakers like the Apogee and some Martin Logan's)

 
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rabski

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For most loudspeakers it's about total resistance rather than R and loop inductance.  But for some (very nice) loudspeakers, that have high frequency impedance's below 0.5 Ohm, loop inductance is very important. (speakers like the Apogee and some Martin Logan's)
I don't think you mean loop inductance here.

 
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rabski

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Is there a better term?
I'm not sure what you actually mean. Loop inductance is exactly what the term suggests: the inductive property of a loop of wire. Usually deliberate, in the form of a small inductor, but sometimes accidentally resulting from PCB layout. I don't see what inductance has to do with anything here.

 

Bodgit

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My Townshend Isolda speaker cables can be different lengths as they're impedance matched. Just sayin'  :whistle:

 
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Speedskater

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OK, how about?


Parallel Wire Inductance


The inductance for the two wire inductance might be useful in measuring the inductance for a signal and ground on a speaker cable. The inputs to this calculator are length distance between the two conductors and diameter of the wire. These two signals make a complete loop.

calculator

https://www.eeweb.com/tools/parallel-wire-inductance
 

gasolin

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2x4 meter to my speaker, i refuse to use different legth, 2x1.5 meter coaxial, 0.5-75cm for my dac tape deck, my turntable i can't use customized cable in the prefered legth

 

MF 1000

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Different lengths will have different resistances, regardless of the nonsense that Max comes out with.
And if you look at the quoted resistances for cables a metre difference may account for 0.1 ohms .....you may get a bigger increase from surface oxidation or a poorly soldered terminal 

 
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zeta4

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George

Sorry but I dont want to get drawn into long long thread like the one on DiyAudio a while ago. Perhaps I shouldnt have mentioned it.

Anyway what I think is needed with these cable arguments is some solid peer reviewed technical evidence that correlates with what you hear between different cables (and lengths). I do know of some promising work which could help answer this. If it comes off it might put an end to cable sound threads but then what would we argue about. 

 

rabski

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George

Sorry but I dont want to get drawn into long long thread like the one on DiyAudio a while ago. Perhaps I shouldnt have mentioned it.

Anyway what I think is needed with these cable arguments is some solid peer reviewed technical evidence that correlates with what you hear between different cables (and lengths). I do know of some promising work which could help answer this. If it comes off it might put an end to cable sound threads but then what would we argue about. 
I'm sure some people will find something :D

 

J Edgar Dyson

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George

Sorry but I dont want to get drawn into long long thread like the one on DiyAudio a while ago. Perhaps I shouldnt have mentioned it.

Anyway what I think is needed with these cable arguments is some solid peer reviewed technical evidence that correlates with what you hear between different cables (and lengths). I do know of some promising work which could help answer this. If it comes off it might put an end to cable sound threads but then what would we argue about. 
It's easily explained. Thin cables have higher resistance than thick ones so go for thick ones. You don't want your frequency response to track the impedance curve of the speakers and you don't want the signal to be converted into heat in the cable. Characteristic impedance of cables only applies when you are talking about RF transmission lines and matching is required.

 
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zeta4

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Ok here goes.

I am a friend and colleague of Max Townshend but nothing to do with the cables just transformers and electronics. This is just my take as an EE.

Characteristic  Impedance applies at all freqencies The value can be calculated at a particular freq using Heaviside,s Telegrapher,s  equation using  the resistance, capacitance , inductance, and conductance per unit length of a cable. At low freq the resistance term dominates until at higher freq the other reactive terms come into play. So a nominal 75R coax is only that value above 100khz. There is an article on the Belden website covering this in more detail. 

Why the CI of a cable can matter is because if the cable is not terminated by an impedance  which is the same value as the CI some of the energy in the wave being transmitted is refected back down the cable towards the source end.. As the source is usually low impedance there is a similar reflection and so on  All this though is at 0.8 the speed of light or thereabouts so shouldnt affect events at audio frequencies, or should it ?

Its certainly easy to see these reflections on a test set up. If you pass a bandwidth limited square wave down a reasonable length of cable which is loaded by a mismatched impedance and view the waveform produced with a good scope you will see the reflections as a series of steps on the leading edge.. There have been some papers produced  on this (Delatraz) if anyone is interested in repeating the test. Ok some will say "but this isnt music" which is true but a square wave does contain a wide range of frequencies so I think its valid. This can also be simulated in LTSpice which does show waveform distortion but only at freq above the audio band. These could affect certain amplifiers but its difficult to prove.

One way being developed is to drive identical signals, including music, down two identical cables and load them differently. Then analyse any difference between them. You can actually listen to the difference as well. Of course you could also use two different cables (or lengths) and load them the same.

Its producing some interesting results but it has to be made certain that only the cable differences are being measured not for example slight amplifier differencies.

I think the intention is for the test method to be made public for all to try. 

Ps I forgot to explain for a loudspeaker cable to try to match a typical loudspeaker impedance so as to minimise reflections it has to engineered with very low resistance per unit length and certain inductance/capacitance ratio. In this way the cables CI can be near the speakers impedance above 1khz . Paralleling up CAT5 twisted pairs is a good way

 
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J Edgar Dyson

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Ok here goes.

I am a friend and colleague of Max Townshend but nothing to do with the cables just transformers and electronics. This is just my take as an EE.

Characteristic  Impedance applies at all freqencies The value can be calculated at a particular freq using Heaviside,s Telegrapher,s  equation using  the resistance, capacitance , inductance, and conductance per unit length of a cable. At low freq the resistance term dominates until at higher freq the other reactive terms come into play. So a nominal 75R coax is only that value above 100khz. There is an article on the Belden website covering this in more detail. 

Why the CI of a cable can matter is because if the cable is not terminated by an impedance  which is the same value as the CI some of the energy in the wave being transmitted is refected back down the cable towards the source end.. As the source is usually low impedance there is a similar reflection and so on  All this though is at 0.8 the speed of light or thereabouts so shouldnt affect events at audio frequencies, or should it ?

Its certainly easy to see these reflections on a test set up. If you pass a bandwidth limited square wave down a reasonable length of cable which is loaded by a mismatched impedance and view the waveform produced with a good scope you will see the reflections as a series of steps on the leading edge.. There have been some papers produced  on this (Delatraz) if anyone is interested in repeating the test. Ok some will say "but this isnt music" which is true but a square wave does contain a wide range of frequencies so I think its valid. This can also be simulated in LTSpice which does show waveform distortion but only at freq above the audio band. These could affect certain amplifiers but its difficult to prove.

One way being developed is to drive identical signals, including music, down two identical cables and load them differently. Then analyse any difference between them. You can actually listen to the difference as well. Of course you could also use two different cables (or lengths) and load them the same.

Its producing some interesting results but it has to be made certain that only the cable differences are being measured not for example slight amplifier differencies.

I think the intention is for the test method to be made public for all to try. 

Ps I forgot to explain for a loudspeaker cable to try to match a typical loudspeaker impedance so as to minimise reflections it has to engineered with very low resistance per unit length and certain inductance/capacitance ratio. In this way the cables CI can be near the speakers impedance above 1khz . Paralleling up CAT5 twisted pairs is a good way
It's a marketing ploy and it fooled you. Characteristic impedance of a cable is only important (and relevant) when the load impedance, cable impedance and source impedance are all matched.  Having an extremely low impedance at one end (the amplifier) and a variable impedance at the other (virtually all loudspeakers) means that true matching  is impossible.

 

rabski

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Please follow the rules about language in the public section of the forum. We don't have time to have to keep hiding and deleting posts.

 
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