Reel-to-Reel appreciation thread...

[macvisual]

Hope the Mod's don't mind if I start a Reel-to-Reel appreciation thread (?), If so please remove.

Ok I'll come clean, I've never owned one of these fantastic iconic tape machines, but since childhood I've been fascinated by them as as a young boy, we'd an old Philips version knocking about our house in Belfast in the late 1960's etc.....fabulous memories.

So my Reel-to-Reel knowledge is totally 'Zero', I appreciate this could be a complicated discussion with regards to tape speeds, NAB adapters, makes of tapes and servicing/maintenance issues. I've seen the likes of the Technics RS-1500 Reel-to-Reel recorders (not heard one) but they look utterly beautiful......and pricy I'm pretty sure. What about the Revox G36 r2r....any good..?

So I'd love to ask questions like; is ownership worth the hassle/cost/struggle? And what would you actually record on one, and is the playback as good as they say depending on makes and models and tape speed etc...? Are tapes still available to buy..? I literally no nothing about these, be gentle and spoon feed please.......lol.

I'd greatly appreciate input and feedback from owners of these iconic beautiful looking machines please. I know there's many many different makes/types like; Tanberg/Tascam/Akai/Sony/Grundig/Studer/Denon/Stellavox/Revox and so on etc.....can you get into it cheaply I wonder without spending a huge lump sum of dosh..? Is it all worth it..?

Would love to hear from youse Reel-to-Reel vintage audio Guru's, please post photo's of your pride n' joy R2R's,  any advice/knowledge/experience/ownership stories I'd love to hear about - Thank you...!

Get stuck in.........here we go.

Cheers - Peter

 

[dave]

Revox G36

Tim DP used to like tweaking them. I had an ex BBC A62, very quickly realised it would be much better value just buying records and CDs. 

But I do love them though. Still quietly have cravings for a B77, or any decent 10" machine, but no, not at the moment, and the bargains have gone. Got an Akai GX280D from the car boot sale, might have a go at getting that working one day, but my valve cassette deck is higher up the list. 

 

[rabski]

There are quite a few 'tape heads' around these parts. I've got a couple of cheap and cheerful Sonys, but it's a path I very much fear to tread.

For what it's worth, if you can get the source material (original master tapes, for example) you will be staggered. It doesn't come cheap though. I'd put it in the same category as vinyl. You can get good results without spending masses, but the very best results do need deep pockets.

 

[CnoEvil]

Maybe we also need a Sony Elcaset appreciation thread as well.  h34r:

 

[Nearly bewildered]

Hope the Mod's don't mind if I start a Reel-to-Reel appreciation thread (?), If so please remove.

Ok I'll come clean, I've never owned one of these fantastic iconic tape machines, but since childhood I've been fascinated by them as as a young boy, we'd an old Philips version knocking about our house in Belfast in the late 1960's etc.....fabulous memories.

So my Reel-to-Reel knowledge is totally 'Zero', I appreciate this could be a complicated discussion with regards to tape speeds, NAB adapters, makes of tapes and servicing/maintenance issues. I've seen the likes of the Technics RS-1500 Reel-to-Reel recorders (not heard one) but they look utterly beautiful......and pricy I'm pretty sure. What about the Revox G36 r2r....any good..?

So I'd love to ask questions like; is ownership worth the hassle/cost/struggle? And what would you actually record on one, and is the playback as good as they say depending on makes and models and tape speed etc...? Are tapes still available to buy..? I literally no nothing about these, be gentle and spoon feed please.......lol.

I'd greatly appreciate input and feedback from owners of these iconic beautiful looking machines please. I know there's many many different makes/types like; Tanberg/Tascam/Akai/Sony/Grundig/Studer/Denon/Stellavox/Revox and so on etc.....can you get into it cheaply I wonder without spending a huge lump sum of dosh..? Is it all worth it..?

Would love to hear from youse Reel-to-Reel vintage audio Guru's, please post photo's of your pride n' joy R2R's,  any advice/knowledge/experience/ownership stories I'd love to hear about - Thank you...!

Get stuck in.........here we go.

Cheers - Peter

My friend has a teac reel to reel player..he buys his tapes secondhand and on the whole he hasnt had any problems with the tapes..its a bit of a minefield I suppose but once you get to the other side..you then realise it was worth the aggravation..if your interested I'll find out which model..it wasn't their top the range either..anyway he tapes qobuz hi res onto these reel to reels..its astonishing! Like vinyl? Pah!! Its like having the best turntable! If you get a reel to reel try this and compare the hi res recording to  your taped version? You willl hear the magic immediately..the know all know nothings will just say its distortion your hearing.. and it simply isnt possible to hear more on the tape than the hi res track can provide..you will hear it..not many hear this as reel to reel is too much of a faff for them..persevere, and you will gain  a great treasure! Hope this helps

 

[bandit pilot]

 

[topoxforddoc]

I started a R2R thread on the Owners Clubs and Forums section a few years ago. I can't seem to find it now. R2R involvement can range from idle curiosity to almost total immersion. Remember that R2R is an analogue medium and the machines are far more complex than any record player. Setting up a tape deck (calibration) is just as important as setting up a cartridge properly. Before getting into this, you have to ask yourself a few salient questions:

Is your main aim to buy pre-recorded tapes or to do your own recordings (either studio or recording tape mixes like a cassette player)?

If it's pre-recorded tapes you want to play, do you want to buy commercial releases (4 track or 2 track) or are you planning to buy "master tapes" (2 track only)?

How much space do you have and what's your budget?

If you want to use a R2R like a high end cassette player to record your favourite albums or tape mixes, then it matters little whether you buy a 4 or 2 track machine. A 4 track machine played the tape in both directions like a cassette. A 2 track plays the tape only in one direction. The freq response and SQ is better generally on a 2 track machine for any given tape width (typically 1/4 inch) and tape speed.

Many commercial releases came out on 3.75 IPS 4 track and some on 7.5 IPS 4 track. A few commercial release came out on 7.5 IPS 2 track. "Master tapes" are usually 15 IPS 2 track (1/4 inch tape), although a few are 30 IPS 2 track (1/2 inch tape).

Machines can be grouped into domestic/home audio (eg Teac, Sony, Akai, Technics, earlier Revox etc - all with standard RCA sockets), semi pro (eg Revox PR99, Tascam, lower end Otari) and pro/studio machines (eg Studer, Ampex, Otari MTR, MCI, Sony APR 5000 etc - XLR only). The cost of studio machines has rocketed in the last 5 years and decent machines have at least doubled in price. Condition is all important, esp the heads, which can often be knackered and catch out the unwary.

New blank tape is not cheap - typically £30-35 for a 10.5 inch pancake, £50 on a plastic reel or £60 on a metal reel. Used tape is variable - BASF/AGFA is generally fine, Ampex and Quantegy can be unusable. Pre-recorded albums vary significantly in cost. Paradoxically, a proper production master tape might cost less than a collectible commercial tape!

At the high end of the scale, a 15 IPS master tape played on a properly set up studio machine in unbeatable. No record player, even a £50-100k set up, can match the sound quality of a 15 IPS tape.

 

[macvisual]

So for pure sound quality playback is it best to aim for a machine that plays 15 IPS then..? Are there many decks that have 30 IPS......(even better)..?

What are the Technics RS1500's like, or a Revox B77 as a player/recorders..? 

 

[bigrod]

When I was working as a junior tech service in the coatings industry and went around with the Reps I got friendly with a rep from South Shields . Knowing I was into my music he brought in a Ferrograph 724 in perfect condition made at the factory just down the road from where he lived .. Used it for many a years after which I brought a Revox A77 .The engineering and sound quality was superb .. I sold it to a work colleague about 25 yrs ago due to lack of space .. Seriously considering having a R to R in the new mancave in the future..

kindest regards Julian 

 

[rabski]

I started a R2R thread on the Owners Clubs and Forums section a few years ago. I can't seem to find it now.

I can't either. However, you did post a seriously useful thread in tech bits about R2R.

Linky: https://www.hifiwigwam.com/forum/topic/127386-setting-up-a-r2r-tape-deck-part-1-repro-playback/

 

[topoxforddoc]

So for pure sound quality playback is it best to aim for a machine that plays 15 IPS then..? Are there many decks that have 30 IPS......(even better)..?

What are the Technics RS1500's like, or a Revox B77 as a player/recorders..? 

30ips is found only on studio machines. No domestic machine has 30ips. Remember that a 2500 ft 10.5 in reel of standard play tape last 33 mins 20 secs at 15ips and only 16 mins 40 secs at 30ips.

The quality of the transport is a really key issue for R2R. Keeping tape moving at a constant speed over a tape head  in a straight line is a real challenge. Studio machines do this better, as you might expect.

Also studio machines are easier to adjust for tape calibration, whereas it’s more difficult to do on a domestic machine. Typically a studio machine would have been calibrated at the start of every day.
 

 

[Jules_S]

I would dearly love to own an R2R, to be truthful for the visual drama and tactile pleasure of operating it However a fellow Wammer from near these part (what shall remain nameless) consistently tries to put me off!   I shall not be swayed, and eventually something big, shiny and mesmerising will eventually find its way chez-Jules. But not before I scratch the speaker itch I have....

@macvisual do keep us posted on what decision you make. I think that at least some of the models you have mentioned do give you the option to switch between 4-track and 2-track operation, so to @topoxforddoc's point of obtaining prerecorded material, it might be worth making sure that what machine you go for can support both formats, for maximum compatibility. Not that I would know if there's a sonic compromise from that facility...

P.S. Out of the Blue on R2R - my idea of heaven!

 

[Radioham]

I was using R2R machines in the 1970's as that was the only recordable medium at that time. I was a member of a school audio club and we used to record school concerts. A few year later I was part of a Hospital Radio Station and again we used to pre-record programmes and interviews etc. Editing was done by cutting and slicing the tape. At school we used machines by Brennel, Ferrograph and Truvox. In Hospital Radio it was Tandberg and Revox. 7.5 ips was the best for quality and tape costs. At home I used a Philips reel to reel running 3.75 ips.Later at home I used an Akai 4000DS and Sony TC377. Very quickly cassette came along with high quality and Dolby Noise reduction. 

Consider that some of the R2R machines are over 40 years old it takes a lot of repairs and maintenance to keep them in spec. Some parts are dedicated Chips and I guess most people will know about rubber rot on pressure rollers. The Revox will need all of the capacitors changing. Even when new R2R machines would struggle with frequency response and wow and flutter issues. However they do sound very good which I guess is due to the Bias and Equalisation. 

Unless you have access to studio master (£200-£450 per reel) you will get far better results with CD or Vinyl. Have been there and done it, I would not go down the R2R route unless you were running demonstrations at HiFi Shows.

 

[macvisual]

 Many years back I bought a cheap and cheerful Sony JA330 mini-disc recorder, I still own it today and do use it very often, I've about 100 disc's with music recorded, it's a very handy and versatile format for sure, a lot cheaper that R2R.

I may consider my thoughts over the next while....

 

[topoxforddoc]

Ultimately it's all about the music. I feel very privileged to have been able to plunge seriously into R2R. I bought my machines before their values rocketed and the late Stewart Emmings (Lodgesound) was so influential in my R2R journey. Stew's Studer A820 and Otari MTR12 sit pride of place in my system. Every time I turn them on, I think of him.

I have spent over 40 years enjoying this hobby and live in a household with live music every day. Our house is full of musical instruments, which are played every day. Until lockdown, I went regularly to gigs with my night time photographer hat on. I want to hear the musicians in front of me.

Luckily I have collected a fair number of studio masters. I only buy albums, which I enjoy - no hi-fi demo items. The tapes give you more "air", better dynamics and a real presence, which you don't get with anything format.

I have compared vinyl LPs against the studio masters. The LPs are played on my Platine Verdier with 2 tonearms (Schroeder Reference and model 2 with an Allaerts MC1B and Decca C4E). The Decca gets closest to the master tape every time.

I also archive every newly purchased master onto new tape (15 IPS with Dolby SR) and digitally (Prism Sound Lyra 2 interface). If you rip the master tape with a studio quality interface, the digital file is pretty much indistinguishable from the original tape.

The thing about the original studio masters is that a) they are as close as you can get to the original session recording, b) the musicians are there with you and c) no-one has "remastered" (i.e. making it out) it for a new audience listening on their phones through a set of  "earbuds".

R2R can become totally addictive. If you're brave enough to jump in both feet first, you could easily get sucked under.

 

[DomT]

Original r2r releases sound very good even on a modest machine. The cost of tape as others have said is a problem. A top customised cassette deck will get close to a standard modest r2r in performance. 

 

[diplomat2.6]

Techmoan on Youtube has made a couple of videos on R2R.

I remember by school PE lessons were taped from the radio on a Tandberg R2R “Radio 4 VHF for schools presents Musical movement with Jeffrey Wheeler...” I hated PE, but have been fascinated with R2R ever since”

 

[Rayymondo]

Took this pic at the Bristol show last year. Guess that would be due again about now if not cancelled this year.... :|

View attachment 79507

 

[macvisual]

Looks like as Technics R2R ........(?)