Upgrade from Majik DSM to Akurate DSM - pros and cons

[DavidHB]

I suggest to listen to and evaluate a Akurate Exaktbox-I ... My opinion is that akurate system hub Exaktbox-I makes a lot of difference and you have katalyst...

I'm not so sure in this case, The Exaktbox-I would make the key component of the ADSM (its Katalyst processor amd DACs) redundant, and replace it with an implementation which, though it is still Katalyst, is likely to be inferior. I haven't heard the comparison, but the process of squeezing Exaktbox functionality and eight channels of (less than full Akurate level) amplification into the standard case with a single power supply is bound to have produced some compromises.

In this case, I'd be inclined to recommend the route I myself followed. Stay passive, upgrade to an A2200 (which might be needed longer term in any case), then, as funds permit, go for the Akubariks (which will need to be sourced second hand), and only finally make the choice between Aktiv and Exakt - if, that is, the not inconsiderable cost of the latter feels justifiable at the time. If Akubariks really are the desired endpoint, the Exaktbox-I, with only 8 channels, does not provide a viable upgrade path.

David

Later P.S. If upgrading from the M140s is likely to be a long way off, and you do not have the optional heavier bases for them, I'd invest in those at the same time as you get the new amplifier. They significantly improve the bass performance of the speakers, and will add value (or at least saleability) when you come to sell the M140s on.

 

[NL.]

Many thanks for the comments and suggestions.

I'm also more in favor of Akurate level amps, assuming this as more forward looking.

The A4200 is the way to go especially with your eye to going aktiv by adding more Akurate channels. I went M6100x2 to A4100X2 and the resulting SQ was large. More separation, more detail, better note decay.  Akubariks are on my ultimate list too. 

My gut feeling is pointing me in the same direction... I'm happy also to have an empirical confirmation from you, as I'm not in a position to listen and judge for myself, unfortunately...

In this case, I'd be inclined to recommend the route I myself followed. Stay passive, upgrade to an A2200 (which might be needed longer term in any case), then, as funds permit, go for the Akubariks (which will need to be sourced second hand), and only finally make the choice between Aktiv and Exakt - if, that is, the not inconsiderable cost of the latter feels justifiable at the time. If Akubariks really are the desired endpoint, the Exaktbox-I, with only 8 channels, does not provide a viable upgrade path.

You wrote A2200 deliberately, or you meant A4200?

Should I keep my M2100 and just add A2200, or should I say goodbuy to M2100 and use single A2200 (or A4200)

Of course I'm aware A2200 x2 are much better than single A4200 duo to double PSU in case of A2200 x2 . That is why maybe even A2200 + M2100 would give better results than single 4200... but higher would be the price tag for the pair of A2200...

As my ADSM has a Katalyst, I'm also considering  to find a pair of older aktiv Akubariks (maybe even a pair of 350' ) with XLR balanced inputs, and not to buy amps at all... to reduce the system to ADSM and XLR aktiv speakers. Exact Akubariks with Katalyst are to expensive, but also my ADSM's inner Katalyst is redundant in that case. The same story of redundancy goes with the AExaktbox 10 and AExaktbox-I.

So to try tu summarise my thoughts - (i) to add A2200/4200 and stay passive as you suggested, to enjoy my M140 a little while... and later to add passive Akubariks and more amps, or (ii) to find a pair of aktive speakers with XLR connection now...  

 

[arm]

Many thanks for the comments and suggestions.

I'm also more in favor of Akurate level amps, assuming this as more forward looking.

My gut feeling is pointing me in the same direction... I'm happy also to have an empirical confirmation from you, as I'm not in a position to listen and judge for myself, unfortunately...

You wrote A2200 deliberately, or you meant A4200?

Should I keep my M2100 and just add A2200, or should I say goodbuy to M2100 and use single A2200 (or A4200)

Of course I'm aware A2200 x2 are much better than single A4200 duo to double PSU in case of A2200 x2 . That is why maybe even A2200 + M2100 would give better results than single 4200... but higher would be the price tag for the pair of A2200...

As my ADSM has a Katalyst, I'm also considering  to find a pair of older aktiv Akubariks (maybe even a pair of 350' ) with XLR balanced inputs, and not to buy amps at all... to reduce the system to ADSM and XLR aktiv speakers. Exact Akubariks with Katalyst are to expensive, but also my ADSM's inner Katalyst is redundant in that case. The same story of redundancy goes with the AExaktbox 10 and AExaktbox-I.

So to try tu summarise my thoughts - (i) to add A2200/4200 and stay passive as you suggested, to enjoy my M140 a little while... and later to add passive Akubariks and more amps, or (ii) to find a pair of aktive speakers with XLR connection now...  

I replaced one m6100 at a time, with two months in between, while using internal active cards for my M140’s. My system sounded unbalanced while I had the A4200 on the K2 array of the M140s and the M6100 on the mid/ bass drivers. Tried switching , still unbalanced. Just didn’t sound right. I even lowered the gain in the A4200 by -4 on the little dials on the back for each channel. This was better, but not as optimal as two A4200.  Took awhile to find the right second A4200 on the used market at the time, but worth it. You will enjoy the M140s on Akurate amps, and if this is just a stepping stone to Aktiv powered speakers , I would suggest getting a set of Aktiv cards for the M140s since they will cost little ( sold mine for $200 CDN!) and add much to this level while you wait for an opportunity on the used market. 

 

[DavidHB]

You wrote A2200 deliberately, or you meant A4200?

I meant A2200, so standard two channel passive. For the reasons given by arm, I think that the key thing is the Akurate level amplification, which, in your case, may well be as important a step (and potentially much cheaper!) that full Aktiv. I can't speak from much experience of multi-amping, but my instinct is that it is a much less cost-effective option than full activation. As arm says, the marginal cost of full Aktiv vs. multi-amping is not all that great in any case.

As an aside, here in Linn land we pay a lot of attention to speaker activation. In the wider world, I'd guess that 90% plus of component Hi-Fi systems are two channel stereo. There are some very good reasons why that is the case. And, yes, I do have an Exakt system. And, yes, I like it very much and plan to keep it as it is. But I am in a small minority in that regard. There are plenty of people out there who would think that you should add a pair of Solos to your wish list to go with your wished for Akubariks.  

I'm also considering  to find a pair of older aktiv Akubariks (maybe even a pair of 350' ) with XLR balanced inputs, and not to buy amps at all... to reduce the system to ADSM and XLR aktiv speakers.

That's a good thought. Those speakers can also still be upgraded to Exakt, albeit at eye-watering cost.

David

 

[NL.]

Thanks Arm. Did you try driving a pair of yours M140 with a single A4200?

Could you please share your expiriance in that respect? 

 

[arm]

Thanks Arm. Did you try driving a pair of yours M140 with a single A4200?

Could you please share your expiriance in that respect? 

No I didn’t. In retrospect it may have been a better choice but I did have active cards and had enjoyed aktiv Majik Amplification for several years before the A4200 upgrades so the though didn’t occur to me, as removing the cards form my system seemed, on the surface , to be a step backwards. Might have been better, but a compromise none the less 

 

[arm]

One thing about the M140’s is their ability to “grow “ with your up stream choices. After upgrading to A4200’s I truly realized that these speakers were underestimated. I think this comes from most people having heard M140s without the metal upgrade stands. These make a huge difference in bottom end. But they are really expensive for hunks of metal ( keel anyone ? ) . So, I think they are dismissed as immediate upgrades.
 

When I went to an Akurate system hub ( from MDSM) and an exactbox10 ( from Internal aktiv cards) I started thinking about upgrading my Ekos 1 and my Hub to Kilmax level well before a speaker change. The Linn Hierarchy is alive and well!  

 

[NL.]

One more inquery re Akurate level amps - should I go for the ones with an XLR balanced inputs, or RCA unbalanced variants are equally good?

IMHO balanced connections should be used whenever available/posible... yet I don't have any personal expiriance in that respect. So any thoughs on the dilema balanced vs unbalanced Akurate level amps?   

 

[DavidHB]

So any thoughts on the dilemma balanced vs unbalanced Akurate level amps?   

I've heard both, and I don't think that there's a lot of difference, if any. At the time I bought my A2200, the dealer said that he preferred the RCA version, which confirms my view that it's a close call. With an ADSM, you can use either.version, so, if you are buying second hand, you can, I believe, confidently buy what's available. What I don't know is whether you can mix types in a multi-amp system; my guess is that you can't, but I'm open to correction on that.

David

 

[NL.]

Many thanks David. If I follow you correctly, I could start with a single A2200 + existing M140. That combo should (at least in theory) sound better that my current setup (which is running on Majik class amplification).

This in my case looks relatively future proof - if I decide to migrate to passive Akubariks. Then I could add one more A2200, or A4200 (or even a pair of A4200). This should work fine, yet the cost effectivness is higly questionable...

Now I come to what I wanted to ask - how does active cards story fit in my plans? Theoreticaly, if I add a pair of A4200 and keep my M140, I could add 4 active cards in A4200s and run my M140 actively? ...and my whole setup should be considered as an active setup? ...or I still dont understand the "active" concept?  

What would be the difference between active concept explained above and the "activation" via Akurate exaktbox? Exaktbox is a digital crossover whilst active cards fited in amps are analog crossovers, right? Does aplication of these two thalternatives make speaker inernal crossovers redundant?

Sorry for bothering again with this, but I dont feel clear on this "activ story" and I would realy like to understand it.

Best, NL.

 

[arm]

There is a lot to unpack so I will take a shot at just the the first question since I lived it recently. You will need to have 8 channels of amplification ( 4 x 2200 , or 2 x4200, or 2x2200 +2x4200) before you can launch into aktiv cards. You cannot half aktivate, as it were, M140’s , it’s all or nothing. These internal amp cards take the place of the less efficient crossovers in your speakers by separating the signal for each driver prior to amplification , then sending it to its specific amp. All more efficient ending in cleaner SQ and more head room. This was my route first (  2X 4200) before stopping over with active cards prior to replacing the cards with an AEBox10. 

 

[BB1]

Exaktbox is a digital crossover whilst active cards fited in amps are analog crossovers, right? Does aplication of these two thalternatives make speaker inernal crossovers redundant?

Yes to both questions.

 

[sunbeamgls]

I've heard both, and I don't think that there's a lot of difference, if any. At the time I bought my A2200, the dealer said that he preferred the RCA version, which confirms my view that it's a close call. With an ADSM, you can use either.version, so, if you are buying second hand, you can, I believe, confidently buy what's available. What I don't know is whether you can mix types in a multi-amp system; my guess is that you can't, but I'm open to correction on that.

David

I don't think this is possible. The sensitivity levels of the inputs are different. So you'd end up with one amp playing louder than another.

Not sure if both RCA and XLR outputs on the ADSM are live at the same time, and if you could connect one amp to their respective connectors and get the same volume levels.  I don't think I'd gamble on that working, but helpline@linn.co.uk will confirm.

 

[BB1]

What I don't know is whether you can mix types in a multi-amp system

In general you can, because the voltage gain factors of both types take the different output voltages of the ADSM (or any other Linn source) into account. The output voltage of the XLR output is twice as high as the RCA’s output voltage. Since the balanced type has a voltage gain of 22.6 dB, whereas the RCA type has a voltage gain of 28.6 dB, both amps will play at the same volume (6 dB is equivalent to a factor of 2).

Of cause you can’t connect an output of a balanced Ax200 to an input of an RCA Ax200 input or vice versa in a multi-amp system. Although adapters from XLR to RCA and RCA to XLR are available, using them would lead to a mismatch in volume of the amps. Let’s assume that the volume setting of the DS is 50. If connecting an RCA amp to an XLR output, it would play as loud as if the volume setting is 56. Accordingly a balanced amp connected to an RCA output would play as loud as if the volume setting is 44.

If a balanced connection is of benefit, depends on two factors: Cable length and how the balanced output and input stages are designed. The longer the cable is, the more susceptible it is to coupled in noise from the outer world. Since such outer noise effects both signal lines the same, such noise cancels itself out on the receivers side, which „calculates“ the difference between both signal lines.

At Akurate level the XLR output signal is generated by additional components which invert the RCA output signal. On the amps side, additional components are needed to transform the received balanced signal to an unbalanced one (i.e. RCA). The errors introduced by these additional components can outweigh the benefits of the balanced transmission, hence I’m not surprised that your dealer prefers the RCA version.

 

[BB1]

Not sure if both RCA and XLR outputs on the ADSM are live at the same time, and if you could connect one amp to their respective connectors and get the same volume levels.

Again, yes to both questions.

 

[BB1]

The sensitivity levels of the inputs are different.

That's why the voltage gain factors of the amps are different.

 

[TomBl]

I had always understood that balanced XLRs were for long cable runs, you know the microphone lead trailing across the stage and several times round Freddy Mercury. For domestic use, unless a long cable run is needed (in which case exakt?) RCAs should be fine. It does depends on what you alrerady have.

 

[NL.]

If a balanced connection is of benefit, depends on two factors: Cable length and how the balanced output and input stages are designed. The longer the cable is, the more susceptible it is to coupled in noise from the outer world. Since such outer noise effects both signal lines the same, such noise cancels itself out on the receivers side, which „calculates“ the difference between both signal lines.

At Akurate level the XLR output signal is generated by additional components which invert the RCA output signal. On the amps side, additional components are needed to transform the received balanced signal to an unbalanced one (i.e. RCA). The errors introduced by these additional components can outweigh the benefits of the balanced transmission, hence I’m not surprised that your dealer prefers the RCA version.

Indeed interesting explanation, many thanks.

If I understand you correctly, Akurate DSM has been in fact designed to work with the unbalaned (RCA) inputs and outputs. But it has "a component", or an imbedded adapter so to say, which is responsible for transforming unbalanced to balanced signal, right? So its inner circuits havent been designed truly balanced (like some American style equipment, e.g. McIntosh), in fact they are just "compatible to balanced".

If this is correct, in case of Linn it apsolutely makes sence to buy unbalanced amp... and balanced connectins are justified only in case of larger distances between compinents, ie. necesity for long cables...  

 

[chesebert]

Indeed interesting explanation, many thanks.

If I understand you correctly, Akurate DSM has been in fact designed to work with the unbalaned (RCA) inputs and outputs. But it has "a component", or an imbedded adapter so to say, which is responsible for transforming unbalanced to balanced signal, right? So its inner circuits havent been designed truly balanced (like some American style equipment, e.g. McIntosh), in fact they are just "compatible to balanced".

If this is correct, in case of Linn it apsolutely makes sence to buy unbalanced amp... and balanced connectins are justified only in case of larger distances between compinents, ie. necesity for long cables...  

It is system dependent. If your amp sounds better balanced, then use the balanced output and vice versa. If ADSM is not designed for balanced, then the same would be true for KDSM. But that is not true as balanced Klimax sounds better if connected to an amp that prefers balanced vs singled ended (think BAT, Ayre types)

 

[formann]

Many thanks for the comments and suggestions.

As my ADSM has a Katalyst, I'm also considering  to find a pair of older aktiv Akubariks (maybe even a pair of 350' ) with XLR balanced inputs, and not to buy amps at all... to reduce the system to ADSM and XLR aktiv speakers. Exact Akubariks with Katalyst are to expensive, but also my ADSM's inner Katalyst is redundant in that case. The same story of redundancy goes with the AExaktbox 10 and AExaktbox-I.

That's a very cost effective approach. If you consider separate boxes, no not forget 5 pairs of Linn silver, speaker cables etc. Doing active analougue Akubarik is very cost efficient and a samshing combo with ADSM kat.