DIY Beginner - Tannoy - 6/6.5 Inch Dual Concentric Drivers

[Zaiden]

Do people reckon that the Tannoy DC4 Signature enclosure/crossover would make a good choice for enclosure/crossover to pair with the Tannoy Autograph Mini drivers?

 

[Tony_J]

Do people reckon that the Tannoy DC4 Signature enclosure/crossover would make a good choice for enclosure/crossover to pair with the Tannoy Autograph Mini drivers?

Crossovers are designed to suit the particular characteristics of a pair of drivers, so I think it unlikely that a crossover designed for the DC4 would be ideal for use with the Autograph Mini driver. Similarly, unless the T-S parameters for the two midbass drivers are a close match, the cab volume and port size may not be ideal for a different driver. Better off measuring the T-S params for the Autograph Mini (just the midbass driver) and running a sim using (e.g.,) Basta! to see what cab volume and port size would be ideal, then hooking up a DSP-based crossover (such as one of the miniDSP units).

 

[Zaiden]

Crossovers are designed to suit the particular characteristics of a pair of drivers, so I think it unlikely that a crossover designed for the DC4 would be ideal for use with the Autograph Mini driver. Similarly, unless the T-S parameters for the two midbass drivers are a close match, the cab volume and port size may not be ideal for a different driver. Better off measuring the T-S params for the Autograph Mini (just the midbass driver) and running a sim using (e.g.,) Basta! to see what cab volume and port size would be ideal, then hooking up a DSP-based crossover (such as one of the miniDSP units).

Hi Tony,

I have heard from MainlyTannoy and another Tannoy expert that cannibalising parts from other 4 inch woofer Tannoy designs/LS5a crossovers could be the way to go. Although I think I've overspammed them with enquiries and haven't heard back from them in a while.

I think the DSP active crossover stuff is a bit too complicated for me for now, and will probably look to start with passive before moving towards active once I have a better understanding of how that all works.

 

[Tony_J]

Hi Tony,

I have heard from MainlyTannoy and another Tannoy expert that cannibalising parts from other 4 inch woofer Tannoy designs/LS5a crossovers could be the way to go. Although I think I've overspammed them with enquiries and haven't heard back from them in a while.

I think the DSP active crossover stuff is a bit too complicated for me for now, and will probably look to start with passive before moving towards active once I have a better understanding of how that all works.

Whatever.

 

[bencat]

I will just add that when making a two way speaker which is what I would advise for a first build active DSP is much easier and more easily adjusted than any passive . You also have the certainty that so long as you have the cr points then your cr will be exactly at that point and with the slope of the cr fully in your control . But if you do not wish to learn from others experience and in my case mistakes then as Tony says so be it .

 

[Zaiden]

I will just add that when making a two way speaker which is what I would advise for a first build active DSP is much easier and more easily adjusted than any passive . You also have the certainty that so long as you have the cr points then your cr will be exactly at that point and with the slope of the cr fully in your control . But if you do not wish to learn from others experience and in my case mistakes then as Tony says so be it .

If I'm going to be honest, I wouldn't even know where to start with regards to active crossovers and using MiniDSPs.

I lack fundamental understanding of passive crossovers, which in turn makes it hard for me to comprehend how something like a MiniDSP works itself into being an active crossover.

I've tried watching videos online. But they mostly feature some MiniDSP graph on a PC, without actually explaining how a MiniDSP factors into the whole setup.

I would be willing to give it a go, but at the moment it just comes across as a massive leap of faith.

Also I wanted to know if it would still be possible to pair an active crossover setup with an integrated amplifier (that has no DAC) such as the Musical Fidelity M2Si.

 

[bencat]

A minidsp DDRC 24 is the simplest thing in the world to use and does all of filter creation and work for you . You have to use a Umik microphone for the set up and you could lend one . The MiniDSP is connected between your pre or dac and then sends the analogue signal to your amplifiers . It shows you on PC screen the settings you put in for cr points you just need know what they are normally around 2500kHz or so then pick your slope . You then use the mic and add in the room correction . All of this is harder to type and explain rather than do . I still have no idea about cr design and passive cr but I find it simple to get a two way active working and I am also able to make small adjustments on the fly to hear what changes do in real time.

You can do the full cr active work with a MiniDSP 24HD unit but you will need to be able to use REW to get your filter settings which you then copy and paste into the MiniDSP but using DIRAC is better and easier for me.

 

[Tony_J]

If I'm going to be honest, I wouldn't even know where to start with regards to active crossovers and using MiniDSPs.

I lack fundamental understanding of passive crossovers, which in turn makes it hard for me to comprehend how something like a MiniDSP works itself into being an active crossover.

I've tried watching videos online. But they mostly feature some MiniDSP graph on a PC, without actually explaining how a MiniDSP factors into the whole setup.

I would be willing to give it a go, but at the moment it just comes across as a massive leap of faith.

Also I wanted to know if it would still be possible to pair an active crossover setup with an integrated amplifier (that has no DAC) such as the Musical Fidelity M2Si.

To be brutally honest, you seem to have neither the knowledge needed to tackle a project like this, nor the knowledge needed to understand when you are being given good (or bad) advice. I don't see this project ending well for you.

 

[diceman]

To be brutally honest, you seem to have neither the knowledge needed to tackle a project like this, nor the knowledge needed to understand when you are being given good (or bad) advice. I don't see this project ending well for you.

Zaiden, Based on your answers above and a potential unwillingness to give it a go with DSP I also feel that trying to re-engineer a speaker from some drive units is not the best approach for you. You'd get far better results by just buying the whole speaker including x-over and cabinet as developed by the manufacturer. Asking for advice is one thing but asking for others to design it for you is probably a big leap too far.

I've gone down the DIY path in this instance primarily as regular sized speakers don't fit with my office desk setup so DIY allows me to build something that fits into the space where they need to sit.

 

[montesquieu]

Some sensible advice here. I'm speaking here as a Tannoy owner for more than 40 years (having had all sorts in that time from full size Autgraphs and GRFs with 15in Monitor Golds, through Eatons, Chatsworths, Cheviots and the like - right down to mini-Autographs - which are toys really, not a serious speaker though quite fun - and DC6 stanmounts, the latter surprisingly capable for the money and size, I run a pair in my study).

I would concur that trying to make a speaker in this way from canibalised parts is not a sensible approach unless you are already versed in the principles of cabinet acoustics and - most importantly - how crossovers work.

Depending on your budget my recommendation would be 1) Some DC6s and quality subwoofer - no kidding this will give you a very good sound for the money, or 2) buy the best larger factory Tannoy you can afford, vintage or more recent. There are many to choose from.

Mark Pitcher of MainlyTannoy does sell Tannoy crossovers but I'm fairly sure he didn't design them and is not a speaker or indeed crossover design expert by any stretch. You aren't going to get a custom-designed crossover for this sort of project from eBay.

 

[TheFlash]

Also I wanted to know if it would still be possible to pair an active crossover setup with an integrated amplifier (that has no DAC) such as the Musical Fidelity M2Si.

The integrated amplifier would be acting as a pre-amplifier into active crossover setup which would in turn be fed into your power amps. The power amp section of the integrated would not be used.

 

[TheFlash]

Might I suggest it could be helpful if you were to describe your current setup, your experience of electronics if any, and what you seek to achieve through this project which you can’t achieve (or can’t afford to achieve!) through buying “readymade” components designed, in themselves, to work as best they can at their price point?

 

[Zaiden]

Might I suggest it could be helpful if you were to describe your current setup, your experience of electronics if any, and what you seek to achieve through this project which you can’t achieve (or can’t afford to achieve!) through buying “readymade” components designed, in themselves, to work as best they can at their price point?

Current setup: Dynaudio Emit M10 speakers, Musical Fidelity M2Si integrated amp, Chord Mojo/Ample Dongle DAC.

Electronics experience: Building my own PC, repairing a broken PS4 disk drive, soldering multiple pairs of Sony MH755 earbuds to use an MMCX connection, buying a broken Musical Fidelity M2Si amplifier identifying a short circuit in the right channel and repairing that, buying a broken graphics card identifying the BIOS chip was missing and using a CH341a programmer to flash the graphics card BIOS onto the microchip before soldering it onto the graphics card to make it functional again.

My experience is non-existent with regards to directly fiddling with/designing audio circuitry or drivers.

 

[TheFlash]

You can obviously wield a soldering iron then, follow the logic of a circuit, and apply structured thinking to problem diagnosis and resolution. They’re very useful skills!
I doubt you’d struggle too much to learn how to design a crossover to achieve certain parameters. However, working out what those parameters are involves a lot more than electronics and there is a whole field of cabinet sizing, materials and design plus of course being able to ultimately tweak attempt 1, 2, 3 etc until you have a pair of speakers which don’t just work, they give you pleasure.
This is why I can’t ever see myself undertaking a similar project!

 

[cooky1257]

I've got a few sets of tannoy i8 DC crossovers here, they'll get you in the ball park and with their 2 nd order 1.7 kHz crossover point may possibly be a perfect fit....

 

[Tony_J]

I've got a few sets of tannoy i8 DC crossovers here, they'll get you in the ball park and with their 2 nd order 1.7 kHz crossover point may possibly be a perfect fit....

Not the right ball park at all, as Tannoy's chosen crossover point for the minis is more like 2.5 kHz IIRC, and the i8 DC drivers will have been designed around the characteristics of their 8" DC drivers. Perfect fit...? Not.

 

[Zaiden]

Not the right ball park at all, as Tannoy's chosen crossover point for the minis is more like 2.5 kHz IIRC, and the i8 DC drivers will have been designed around the characteristics of their 8" DC drivers. Perfect fit...? Not.

So while not ideal compared to miniDSP, based on this statement, do you think crossovers for any of Tannoy's 4" DC drivers (DC4, XT Mini, etc) would be able to pair decently with the Autograph Minis?

Would it not be possible to start off with a crossover/enclosure from another Tannoy 4" DC speaker, then incrementally upgrade to miniDSP when I have more funds/am feeling more confident re MiniDSP?

 

[Tony_J]

So while not ideal compared to miniDSP, based on this statement, do you think crossovers for any of Tannoy's 4" DC drivers (DC4, XT Mini, etc) would be able to pair decently with the Autograph Minis?

Until I am able to compare the T-S parameters and FR curves of the other 4" DC with those of the Autograph Mini, no.

A (2-way) crossover does a number of things, including the most obvious:

- Defining the crossover frequency. Depending on how well/badly the FR curves of the two drivers match at the crossover point, the designer may choose different crossover points and slopes for the two drivers.
- Adjusting the levels of the two drivers to compensate for the fact that their sensitivity will be different (and the cabinet choice will also affect this - see next bullet).
- In more sophisticated crossovers, the designer may well include filtering elements to compensate for the fact that the FR curves of the individual drivers are not flat. Bear in mind that such decisions are not just down to the FR curve of the drivers in isolation, but the FR curve when the drivers are fitted in a particular cabinet, which will affect the overall performance - obvious example is ported vs sealed, which significantly affects the LF response.

So my starting assumption has to be that a crossover designed for drivers A and B in cabinet C will not pair decently when used with drivers A' and B' in cabinet C', unless the characteristics of the 4 drivers and the two cabs are very closely matched.

Would it not be possible to start off with a crossover/enclosure from another Tannoy 4" DC speaker, then incrementally upgrade to miniDSP when I have more funds/am feeling more confident re MiniDSP?

You are confusing "possible" with "likely". Anything is possible - stick a big enough rocket on a pig and it will fly.

 

[cooky1257]

Not the right ball park at all, as Tannoy's chosen crossover point for the minis is more like 2.5 kHz IIRC, and the i8 DC drivers will have been designed around the characteristics of their 8" DC drivers. Perfect fit...? Not.

Ah for some reason, thread title, I was under the impression the OP had i6 DC drivers - which have the same hf diaphragm and tulip as the i8 with a 1.6
khz xover and work quite well, reading on I see he got 4.5" mini drivers. the cone/ horn of the 4.5 won't load the tulip as low as the 6"never mind the 8" so hence the mini's 2.5 kHz xover point. I don't really see the point in the Autograph mini myself...
All said rather than getting stroppy with an obvious novice why not recommend REW, purchase of DATS 3 and Xsim (or any of these): https://windowsreport.com/best-crossover-design-software/.....?

 

[Tony_J]

All said rather than getting stroppy with an obvious novice why not recommend REW, purchase of DATS 3 and Xsim (or any of these):

We did.