Is this a joke!? Just seen the interior of a "top flight" streamer

[Shadders]

How reliable are manufacturers measurements?

That's the purpose of sites such as ASR and some hifi magazines. Keeps the manufacturers honest.

 

[Tony_J]

Don't get started on ASR - it won't end well.

 

[StingRay]

Mogami vs Canare vs Van Damme: all good decent pro quality cables, though you would need to be specific about models rather than making general statements about one brand being better than another.

I’m not sure manufacturers’ measurements are perfect - for a start, unless we start looking at standard deviations etc we don’t really know how tightly specific per their manufacturing tolerances are - but what’s the alternative? To rely on others to do the measurements for us, like a well-known website? That approach is clearly far from perfect too. To measure things ourselves? Well good luck with that; not sure why anyone would invest in the equipment to do so unless they were obsessed about proving something…

But we’ve been here before, more times than The Blair Witch Project II Reprise, Luxury Extended Director’s Cut with Bonus Footage. It won’t end in tears, it will end in being torn up. So I suggest we resist the temptation to argue yet again why measurements are and are not unhelpful in this mad hobby of ours.

I'm well aware that Mogami does many different cables, that's why its difficult because in comparison they may only use 1 or 2 of them, that's why I want to see what Benchmark actually tested.

Here is seller and fitter of pro cables : https://eventhorizon-srv.com/2016/04/06/canare-vs-mogami-braided-vs-wrapped-shield/

they added a Canare because of the extra shielding.

But some people say the plugs make more difference than the cable. I did look on the Mogami site there a few measurements but they dint mean anything to me.

I changed from Tandy to Van Damme without seeing any measurements, did not expect to hear any difference but I did, seems the Tandy were losing some of detail. Some say the Tandy are decent cables but I think the VD Classic XKE are a step up. I may try some Mogami.

 

[tuga]

Mogami vs Canare vs Van Damme: all good decent pro quality cables, though you would need to be specific about models rather than making general statements about one brand being better than another.

I’m not sure manufacturers’ measurements are perfect - for a start, unless we start looking at standard deviations etc we don’t really know how tightly specific per their manufacturing tolerances are - but what’s the alternative? To rely on others to do the measurements for us, like a well-known website? That approach is clearly far from perfect too. To measure things ourselves? Well good luck with that; not sure why anyone would invest in the equipment to do so unless they were obsessed about proving something…

But we’ve been here before, more times than The Blair Witch Project II Reprise, Luxury Extended Director’s Cut with Bonus Footage. It won’t end in tears, it will end in being torn up. So I suggest we resist the temptation to argue yet again why measurements are and are not unhelpful in this mad hobby of ours.

Measurements complement listening and can be a good way to sort the wheat from the chaff, also to narrow down your list of worth-listening-tos.
It is important to understand how measurements are performed, what they represent, that they're not always performed in the same manner, that the representation isn't always interchangeable, and how they correlate with audibility and preference.

System-building is not an "exact science", there are no shirtcuts or easy formulas.

 

[Tony_J]

System-building is not an "exact science", there are no shirtcuts or easy formulas.

I've heard of bodice rippers, but what's a shirtcut...?

 

[tuga]

I well aware that Mogami does many different cables, that's why its difficult because in comparison they may only use 1 or 2 of them, thats why I want to see what Benchmark actually tested.

Here is seller and fitter of pro cables : https://eventhorizon-srv.com/2016/04/06/canare-vs-mogami-braided-vs-wrapped-shield/

they added a Canare because of the extra shielding.

Benchmark uses start-quad because of the better noise-rejection properties.
But if you read the Canare flyer you will note the following:

The signal generated by a microphone during quiet periods can be very low in level, -70dB to -120dB (0.3 millivolts to 1 microvolt). The cable that must carry this signal to the mixer is very sensitive to Electro-magnetic Interference (EMI), Radio Frequency Interference (RFI) and electrostatic coupling of hum and noise. Mechanical vibration, bending, flexing (handling noise) and ambient temperature fluctuations can cause detrimental capacitance changes within the microphone cable. Canare Cables are carefully designed and manufactured to very close tolerances using the highest quality materials available so that low level microphone circuits will not be affected by these outside dis- turbances. The difference is clearly measurable and audible.

 

[tuga]

I've heard of bodice rippers, but what's a shirtcut...?

I'm practicing my Icelandic accent

 

[DomT]

Generally (graphically represented) measurements are a lot more informative than a basic set manufacturer specs.
Also, manufacturer specs are often vague and sometimes "misleading".

The thing about using cables as tone controls is that those weird topologies which do in effect produce some degree of audible tonal change in the treble may also have unwanted side-effects in other parameters.
Here I agree with @Nestor Turton that having access to measurements is a bonus; to me an equipment must both measure and sound good. I know that good mesurements will generally mean that the signal is passing through as unscathed as possible.

What server measurements exist and would help you to understand how it sounds?

 

[tuga]

What server measurements exist and would help you to understand how it sounds?

The only measurements I would look into would be noise and jitter.
If you read Grimm's Guido Tent's posts in this topic (and mine prior to his joining) these are the issues he highlights.

I am not in the market for a streamer so I haven't been looking at streamer reviews.
Here's one:

https://www.grimmaudio.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/201200-HFN-MU1-review.pdf
I am not interested in the Grimm because it doesn't upconvert to high-rate DSD and is 16x more expensive than my used computer + HQPlayer + used endpoint setup.
If I had that budget and didn't want the multi-box faffing I'd rather buy an upconverting DAC like the Mola Mola and use that with a cheap streamer.
But the Grimm looks like a good choice for S/PDIF- and/or AES-only DAC owners with big budgets.

Fortunately I don't suffer from FOMO. And because I don't read reviews I don't get unnecessarily restless.

 

[Shadders]

The only measurements I would look into would be noise and jitter.

Hi,
Jitter is irrelevant. The DAC can only possibly be affected by the jitter on the incoming datastream if the DAC derives its master clock from the datastream - i.e. cheap DAC.

The Chord mscaler has 4ns jitter on its outputs, and it just does not matter. The DAC will not be affected by it unless it is a cheap DAC as referred to above.

For the noise, well, the conversation here is enthralling.

Regards,
Shadders.

 

[DomT]

The only measurements I would look into would be noise and jitter.
If you read Grimm's Guido Tent's posts in this topic (and mine prior to his joining) these are the issues he highlights.

I am not in the market for a streamer so I haven't been looking at streamer reviews.
Here's one:

https://www.grimmaudio.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/201200-HFN-MU1-review.pdf
I am not interested in the Grimm because it doesn't upconvert to high-rate DSD and is 16x more expensive than my used computer + HQPlayer + used endpoint setup.
If I had that budget and didn't want the multi-box faffing I'd rather buy an upconverting DAC like the Mola Mola and use that with a cheap streamer.
But the Grimm looks like a good choice for S/PDIF- and/or AES-only DAC owners with big budgets.

Fortunately I don't suffer from FOMO. And because I don't read reviews I don't get unnecessarily restless.

You read countless stories about products and upgrading every day on here

 

[tuga]

Hi,
Jitter is irrelevant. The DAC can only possibly be affected by the jitter on the incoming datastream if the DAC derives its master clock from the datastream - i.e. cheap DAC.

The Chord mscaler has 4ns jitter on its outputs, and it just does not matter. The DAC will not be affected by it unless it is a cheap DAC as referred to above.

For the noise, well, the conversation here is enthralling.

Regards,
Shadders.

Some people use NOS DACs, other people use 20 year old DACs, some people use S/PDIF...
Perfection (of the utopian kind) only exists in an ASR mindset, the rest of us live in the real world.

And I presume that by the "DAC will not be affected by it" you mean in a 20-20,000Hz measurement.
My approach is rational and evidence-based, in case you have not been reading my posts for the past 4 years.

 

[tuga]

You read countless stories about products and upgrading every day on here

That is how hobbyists practice audiophilia.

 

[Shadders]

Some people use NOS DACs, other people use 20 year old DACs, some people use S/PDIF...
Perfection (of the utopian kind) only exists in an ASR mindset, the rest of us live in the real world.

Hi,
Not sure what you are referring to. The IC's used for the conversion require a clock. If it is a local crystal oscillator, then the datastream on whatever interface has no affect on the jitter of the DAC.

And I presume that by the "DAC will not be affected by it" you mean in a 20-20,000Hz measurement.
My approach is rational and evidence-based, in case you have not been reading my posts for the past 4 years.

Not sure what you mean by this. The local clock is not affected by the data interfaces.

Why do you think Rob Watts allowed for his mscaler costing £4k to have 4ns jitter on its digital outputs ?

Because it does not matter.

Regards,
Shadders.

 

[TheFlash]

I well aware that Mogami does many different cables, that's why its difficult because in comparison they may only use 1 or 2 of them, thats why I want to see what Benchmark actually tested.

Here is seller and fitter of pro cables : https://eventhorizon-srv.com/2016/04/06/canare-vs-mogami-braided-vs-wrapped-shield/

they added a Canare because of the extra shielding.

But some people say the plugs make more difference than the cable. I did look on the Mogami site there a few measurements but they dint mean anything to me.

I change from Tandy to Van Damme without seeing any measurements, did not expect to hear any difference but I did, seems the Tandy were losing some of detail. Some say the Tandy are decent cables but I think the VD Classic XKE are a step up. I may try some Mogami.

Benchmark uses start-quad because of the better noise-rejection properties.
But if you read the Canare flyer you will note the following:

The signal generated by a microphone during quiet periods can be very low in level, -70dB to -120dB (0.3 millivolts to 1 microvolt). The cable that must carry this signal to the mixer is very sensitive to Electro-magnetic Interference (EMI), Radio Frequency Interference (RFI) and electrostatic coupling of hum and noise. Mechanical vibration, bending, flexing (handling noise) and ambient temperature fluctuations can cause detrimental capacitance changes within the microphone cable. Canare Cables are carefully designed and manufactured to very close tolerances using the highest quality materials available so that low level microphone circuits will not be affected by these outside dis- turbances. The difference is clearly measurable and audible.

And from my pre to my active SCM40A's I went from Canare L4E6 Star-Quad to Belden 1800F and prefer it. I had initially settled on the star-quad for rejection of noise but then read this by Blue Jeans cable about capacitance and thought I'd give the Belden a shot. They stayed and I sold on the Star-Quad.

 

[Iceman 16]

Don't get started on ASR - it won't end well.

He can’t help it.

 

[tuga]

And from my pre to my active SCM40A's I went from Canare L4E6 Star-Quad to Belden 1800F and prefer it. I had initially settled on the star-quad for rejection of noise but then read this by Blue Jeans cable about capacitance and thought I'd give the Belden a shot. They stayed and I sold on the Star-Quad.

My empirical experience is that low capacitance makes a positive difference.
I use single-ended very low capacitance cables but of the shotgun variety. I prefer those solid core, single wire to BJ's own LC1 coax.

 

[George 47]

Why do you think Rob Watts allowed for his mscaler costing £4k to have 4ns jitter on its digital outputs ?

Because it does not matter.

I think you are misrepresenting Rob here. He says it does not matter for Chord DACs as they have ways of dealing with it. A comment to explain why the mScaler does not work ideally with some DACs.

 

[Shadders]

He says it does not matter for Chord DACs as they have ways of dealing with it

Hi,
The same for every other DAC that uses a local crystal oscillator. It is not difficult.
Regards,
Shadders.

 

[George 47]

Hi,
The same for every other DAC that uses a local crystal oscillator. It is not difficult.
Regards,
Shadders.

I think you might find Rob disagrees but tell him on Headfi he has a page there and is normally quick to respond.