Is this a joke!? Just seen the interior of a "top flight" streamer

[tuga]

Digital audio is often thought to be immune to the many plagues of analog recording and transmission: distortion, line noise, tape hiss, flutter, crosstalk; and if not immune, digital audio is certainly highly resistant to most of these maladies. But when practicalities such as oscillator instability, cable losses or noise pickup do intrude, they often affect the digital signal in the time domain as jitter.

From "Jitter Theory" by Julian Dunn (AP)

http://www.audiophilleo.com/zh_hk/docs/Dunn-AP-tn23.pdf

 

[tuga]

I have too much stuff in my audio library folder...

The Effects and Reduction of Common-Mode Noise and Electromagnetic Interference in High-
Resolution Digital Audio Transmission Systems
Jon D. Paul, Vice President Scientific Conversion, Inc. Novato, California, USA jonpaul@scientificonversion.com

ABSTRACT
High-resolution digital audio systems are especially susceptible to sources of electromagnetic noise from the environment, for example, crosstalk from adjacent cables. The noise can induce errors and increase jitter in the recovered clock signal.
We discuss the most important noise sources and their characteristics. Next, we analyze the noise susceptibility of typical transmitter and receiver circuits. Test results are provided for a system with induced common-mode noise. The paper concludes with circuit design, component and application considerations.

http://www.scientificonversion.com/AES2003.pdf

 

[newlash09]

I know I can keep certain irritating folks on ignore...but is there a option to do the same to a thread please....

 

[Nestor Turton]

If you don't know that already, LPSUs are available for the 2012 mini.

Thanks, but boutique LPSUs are not for me. I prefer the onboard SMPS. LPSUs often come with large toroidal transformers, which a) buzz in my cottage and b) are magnetic devices. Yet another paper from Benchmark Media explains the advantages of using SMPSs in audio.

https://benchmarkmedia.com/blogs/ap...audio-myth-switching-power-supplies-are-noisy
I’m sure I could upgrade the SMPS in a 2012 Mac mini to a better SMPS and I don’t doubt there is a boutique audio company happy to take my hard earned, but the measurements for the 2012 Mac mini show an absence of random noise so electrical interference is not a problem.

I had lots of Naim kit and it’s all gone now except for the Fraim. It had so many problems, that I spent more time trying to fix than I was spending listening to the Desperate Bicycles and other great bands. Noisy transformers were the biggest problem. Naim et al tried to help, but in the end, my dealer suggested going Linn and the buzzing stopped and the enjoyment of listening to They Might Be Giants returned.

So it’s SMPSs for me. If you have LPSUs then best keep them as far from the sensitive audio circuits as you can.

 

[DomT]

….whatever music server you use and whatever method you use to choose it, I hope you enjoy it and if you don’t switch to Mac mini and you just might.

I did use a 2020 MacBook Pro into a Benchmark DAC 2. The Benchmark is famed for dealing with incoming jitter. But the sound quality was completely spoiled by digital hash. When I used an Auralic Aries Mini in its place all of the digital has noise immediately disappeared. So no just might not use a computer for streaming, in fact you couldn’t pay me to do so, but also I don’t want a computer in the lounge.

 

[Tony_J]

So no just might not use a computer for streaming

Anything that you use for streaming is a computer.

 

[Psilonaught]

I've decided to try an Aqua Linq streamer since I cannot use HQplayer with my Auralic Aries G2.

Rather than buying one with the HQplayer modules I'll be buying an i7 nus/lpsu to run Roon/HQplayer.

This should offer a nice and good value upgrade for my front end.

I'll also dust off my Cisco optical router since I can't use WiFi.

 

[Fourlegs]

I’m sure I could upgrade the SMPS in a 2012 Mac mini to a better SMPS and I don’t doubt there is a boutique audio company happy to take my hard earned, but the measurements for the 2012 Mac mini show an absence of random noise so electrical interference is not a problem.

The noise spectrum you posted only went up to 20kHz. Often the harmful noise is much higher, perhaps even up to 2GHz. So no, the measurements you provided for the Mac Mini are not sufficient to prove an absence of problem.

So it’s SMPSs for me. If you have LPSUs then best keep them as far from the sensitive audio circuits as you can.

Your faith in smps and wariness about LPS is obviously unshakable but in an idle moment you might just wonder why a company such as Innuos do not share either your faith in smps or your wariness regarding LPS. Indeed as I have posted before, their entire range above the Zen Mini only uses various grades of LPS. The Zen Mini uses a smps but Innuos sell a LPS upgrade option and many owners decide to do that after having heard the better sound quality when using the LPS with the Zen Mini streamer/server. Our own @DomT is one such owner who did exactly that. Many Wamners have also upgraded their Node 2i by changing the built in smps to a LPS. Now it is possible they are deluding themselves but it is rare to fool all of the people all of the time.

@Nestor Turton PS, you might counter by saying that you use an optical connection from the Mac Mini to your DAC and surely that will stop all noise in its tracks and prevent it ever getting to the DAC even if there happens to be any noise. There are two problems with that leap of faith argument in that optical isolation can only be relied upon if your mac mini is isolated from the mains, ie by powering it with a battery. Otherwise the noise can and will travel through the groundplain and get to the analogue stages of your dac thereby bypassing the optical break. Secondly there can be issues with noise from the optical convertor in the receiving dac generated by the conversion process. Innuos measured this noise and as a consequence made the decision to only use usb outputs on their higher and streamer/servers rather than optical because they achieved lower overall noise that way.

 

[TheFlash]

I suspect @Nestor Turton has particular issues in his house which the rest of us do not, which is a pity... as I know of no-one else who hears such loud buzzing from toroidal transformers. As @Fourlegs says, most who have the option clearly prefer the low noise which linear PSUs offer.

I suggest we (all of us!) don’t repeat here the well-rehearsed points about these being generalisations and about there being well and not so well designed PSUs of both types. And the equally well rehearsed arguments about why manufacturers choose to deploy SMPS.

 

[DomT]

Anything that you use for streaming is a computer.

Fantastic. Can you help me out please. Have been trying since your post to respond to your post on my Innuos Zen Mini but just can’t find the keyboard or the access to the mystic portal called the Wam. Of course streamers have a computer inside. Are you saying that there is no audio quality difference between the laptop that I use for booking holidays and a dedicated music streamer?

 

[Tony_J]

Fantastic. Can you help me out please. Have been trying since your post to respond to your post on my Innuos Zen Mini but just can’t find the keyboard or the access to the mystic portal called the Wam. Of course streamers have a computer inside. Are you saying that there is no audio quality difference between the laptop that I use for booking holidays and a dedicated music streamer?

I was merely pointing out that that sentence made no sense. Nothing more.

 

[TheFlash]

Fantastic. Can you help me out please. Have been trying since your post to respond to your post on my Innuos Zen Mini but just can’t find the keyboard or the access to the mystic portal called the Wam. Of course streamers have a computer inside. Are you saying that there is no audio quality difference between the laptop that I use for booking holidays and a dedicated music streamer?

Tony is of course technically correct. I think my smartphone is also a computer and my car, microwave etc all contain them (microwave has a high quality clock, must try using it as a DAC!).
But I suspect it was a lighthearted point about computers being everywhere rather than a serious suggestion that all computers perform equally when it comes to audio.

Right, that Zen Mini: have you upgraded to linear PSU yet?

 

[DomT]

I was merely pointing out that that sentence made no sense. Nothing more.

Context Tony. Nestor was using his Mac Mini for streaming (a computer) and I said that I tried my MacBook Pro ( a computer) and didn’t like it. I did like my Auralic Aries Mini (a streamer). Just going to drive my computer to the beach now.

 

[Tony_J]

But I suspect it was a lighthearted point about computers being everywhere rather than a serious suggestion that all computers perform equally when it comes to audio.

This.

 

[tuga]

Thanks, but boutique LPSUs are not for me. I prefer the onboard SMPS. LPSUs often come with large toroidal transformers, which a) buzz in my cottage and b) are magnetic devices. Yet another paper from Benchmark Media explains the advantages of using SMPSs in audio.

https://benchmarkmedia.com/blogs/ap...audio-myth-switching-power-supplies-are-noisy
I’m sure I could upgrade the SMPS in a 2012 Mac mini to a better SMPS and I don’t doubt there is a boutique audio company happy to take my hard earned, but the measurements for the 2012 Mac mini show an absence of random noise so electrical interference is not a problem.

I had lots of Naim kit and it’s all gone now except for the Fraim. It had so many problems, that I spent more time trying to fix than I was spending listening to the Desperate Bicycles and other great bands. Noisy transformers were the biggest problem. Naim et al tried to help, but in the end, my dealer suggested going Linn and the buzzing stopped and the enjoyment of listening to They Might Be Giants returned.

So it’s SMPSs for me. If you have LPSUs then best keep them as far from the sensitive audio circuits as you can.

Is this problem particular to your house?
Did you also have buzzing from all EI Core transformers?

My custom-made integrated two 25 year transformers cannibalised from other amplifiers and one of them has recently started buzzing.
That and the EI which artrites defective in a new Audio Innovations integrated were the only transformers that I had which buzzed and I have had nearly a dozen amplifiers.

 

[DomT]

This.

Given that you are probably the funniest guy on the Wam I am sorry that I missed your playfulness on this occasion.

 

[tuga]

I've decided to try an Aqua Linq streamer since I cannot use HQplayer with my Auralic Aries G2.

Rather than buying one with the HQplayer modules I'll be buying an i7 nus/lpsu to run Roon/HQplayer.

This should offer a nice and good value upgrade for my front end.

I'll also dust off my Cisco optical router since I can't use WiFi.

Do consider getting also a NUC (a Pi4 will do) or microRendu to install HQPlayer NAA.
I have a Cubox with NAA that you can try and it’s yours for beer money (maybe a download?)

 

[Fourlegs]

I suspect @Nestor Turton has particular issues in his house which the rest of us do not, which is a pity... as I know of no-one else who hears such loud buzzing from toroidal transformers. As @Fourlegs says, most who have the option clearly prefer the low noise which linear PSUs offer.

I have consistently high mains here. Usually a minimum of 250V and often up to 253 or 254V for large parts of the day. I admit that I did have one device with a humming transformer in its power supply but I suspect that was a cheap transformer as it was the power supply for the front door bell!! All my many other LPS have totally silent transformers even if I rest my ear right on the case.

Sometimes a transformer can hum due to a problem somewhere else in the house. I did have another humming transformer but that turned out to be faulty central heating pump. Whenever the central heating pump was on that particular transformer would hum. When the pump was replaced the humming transformer became silent. I suspect the faulty pump was injecting DC on the mains.

@TheFlash you mention how many prefer the sound of devices powered with lower noise LPS but it might not just be lower noise or it might not even be lower noise but it could also be the frequency of the noise which is important . SMPS inherently use high frequency switching to achieve the lower voltage and whilst the proponents of smps say that this is easily filtered and dealt with all I can say is that when I was playing with the smps in the Dave one thing I tried was taking the same smps and putting it in an external (earthed) metal case. The sound was immediately improved although not as significantly as when I tried changing to a good quality LPS. On the same subject of the Dave I have recently been trying different 5V power supplies powering the digital board of the Dave because I wondered whether this might be less critical than the analogue circuits which use +/- 15V. It turns out from my experiments that the power to the digital circuit has possibly even more effect on the sound than the analogue circuits. It is no wonder then that the recent upgraded Innuos linear power supply in their Statement streamer/server is having such an effect on sound quality with many owners returning their Statements to Innuos for the £4k power supply upgrade.

 

[Fourlegs]

Right, that Zen Mini: have you upgraded to linear PSU yet?

Yes he did. When he bought the Zen Mini from me complete with original smps he wanted to buy the Sean Jacobs DC3 LPS I had been using with it but if you recall you had first dibs on it and bought my DC3. Dom then fairly quickly bought the Innuos LPS to use with the Zen Mini.

 

[tuga]

Tony is of course technically correct. I think my smartphone is also a computer and my car, microwave etc all contain them (microwave has a high quality clock, must try using it as a DAC!).
But I suspect it was a lighthearted point about computers being everywhere rather than a serious suggestion that all computers perform equally when it comes to audio.

In spite of the advances in audio-dedicated USB input filtering I still prefer to send my stream over Ethernet and have an audio-dedicated network bridge / endpoint connecting to the DAC over USB.

And my computer is running "headless", which means no screen keyboard or mouse is connected.

I used to have my files stored in a NAS to avoid connecting anything to the computer over USB but I am now using an external SSD USB drive to avoid the acoustic noise produced by the NAS.
Amusingly the SSD makes a very high-pitch whine that is audible if I am less than 50cm away; my room is very quiet.