New Cartridge MC £1k

[MVJ]

I appreciate financial decisions are difficult when it is 'only' a hobby, but some common sense needs to be applied. Under £900 for a new Quintet Black less the trade-in value may be twice as much as a retip (I don't know the exact figures), but in effect, the actual monetary difference is therefore £300.

So, for £300 extra, you get a brand new catridge (including, of course, suspension, etc.) that is as the manufacturer and designer intended. Or for £300 less, you can have a cartridge with its original, old, suspension and a stylus that is different. To me, that's a no-brainer. In the overall scheme of things, £300 does not seem an excessive difference for total peace of mind.

Alternatively, it's an excellent opportunity to look at (listen to) alternative cartridges entirely.

Well put Richard and absolutely makes sense

 

[Speedracer]

The only way to ensure you retain the current sound is with an exchange cartridge. Goldring might be able to do a Shibata tip, which would be very close and potentially identical, but not guaranteed.

https://www.goldring.co.uk/goldring-cartridge-repair-refurbishment

I have a cartridge with David at Goldring now, a Coral MC81, & he is rebuilding it with a ruby cantilever & shibata tip, so he definitely can do this.

 

[Hifimad1]

Apologies, I know this question comes up periodically, but I am spending my own money this time so want to ask.

Looking for a low output (0.2 to 0.4mV) MC cart with medium compliance to replace my Ortofon Rohmann that is coming to the end of its life.

My underlying system trait is a dynamic almost forward presentation with bags of detail. Whilst the current cart contributes to this, I do feel that something a touch more organic would work well.

Trade in is possible and worth nearly £300 on another Ortofon cart.

I have my finger poised over a Hama ML, but what are your other recommended options?

An Ortoon Rohmann is an ancient cartridge that’s over

Apologies, I know this question comes up periodically, but I am spending my own money this time so want to ask.

Looking for a low output (0.2 to 0.4mV) MC cart with medium compliance to replace my Ortofon Rohmann that is coming to the end of its life.

My underlying system trait is a dynamic almost forward presentation with bags of detail. Whilst the current cart contributes to this, I do feel that something a touch more organic would work well.

Trade in is possible and worth nearly £300 on another Ortofon cart.

I have my finger poised over a Hama ML, but what are your other recommended options?

Bloody hell an Ortofon Rohmann must be getting on for 15 to 20 years old now. Have you had this that long ? Surely this should have been replaced years ago ! That said the new generation of Audio Technica’s are superb. Either an OC9XSL or the new ARTXA or XI would be a big improvement. I much preferred my AT OC9XSL to a Lyra Kleos.

 

[Idlewithnodrive]

Hana ML for the win!

 

[hiesteem]

An Ortoon Rohmann is an ancient cartridge that’s over

Bloody hell an Ortofon Rohmann must be getting on for 15 to 20 years old now. Have you had this that long ? Surely this should have been replaced years ago ! That said the new generation of Audio Technica’s are superb. Either an OC9XSL or the new ARTXA or XI would be a big improvement. I much preferred my AT OC9XSL to a Lyra Kleos.

Yes. I agree with the latest AT cartridges. They have improved many levels from their early days in the 80's.
I had an OC9 on a Rega arm and Roksan Xerxes back in the early 90's and I would say even the cheaper OC9 is better than the original today.

 

[uzzy]

Hi all,

I’m coming up by the end of the year I’d guess to needing to replace or re-tip an Ortofon Quintet Black S MC, as it’ll be up to around 1200 hours by then so whats the thoughts about using Expert Stylus to do their thing or use the Henley audio Ortofon trade in where they “give me” a £235 value against a new one at £875 , from what I’ve read the all new option will be getting on for twice as expensive after the trade in compared to the re tip assuming my cart itself is ok.

. so being this the first time I’ve needed to think about getting in a replacement cartridge in over 30 years (I’ve had a few TTs over the years but each time they came along I started with a new cart and I moved on before needing to replace the cart, but now I’ve got my keeper TT) I’d appreciate your thoughts good folks on which way to jump as the difference is a lot of records

Any and all thoughts appreciated

oh not sure if this is the best or right thread for my question so mods feel free to move if required

I love Expert .. if it was me I wouldn't hesitate to get them to retip the only thing I would be asking myself is do I get the sapphire cantilever as well. I have a Decca silver they rebuilt with paratrace and a suprgokd retipped by John Wright with extended fine line. Impossible to tell them apart without direct AB swap where you realise the paratrace has a touch more detail and is a little more airy. If you ask they will fit an extended fine line but I would go with the paratrace

 

[lazycat]

Hi all,

I’m coming up by the end of the year I’d guess to needing to replace or re-tip an Ortofon Quintet Black S MC, as it’ll be up to around 1200 hours by then so whats the thoughts about using Expert Stylus to do their thing or use the Henley audio Ortofon trade in where they “give me” a £235 value against a new one at £875 , from what I’ve read the all new option will be getting on for twice as expensive after the trade in compared to the re tip assuming my cart itself is ok.

. so being this the first time I’ve needed to think about getting in a replacement cartridge in over 30 years (I’ve had a few TTs over the years but each time they came along I started with a new cart and I moved on before needing to replace the cart, but now I’ve got my keeper TT) I’d appreciate your thoughts good folks on which way to jump as the difference is a lot of records

Any and all thoughts appreciated

oh not sure if this is the best or right thread for my question so mods feel free to move if required

You've used it for 1200 hrs. I assume you like it.

Just part exchange it for new cartridge and forget the bish-boshing with a re-tip.

As an aside - I bought a Rohmann (end of life) to test my Pellar.
I did speak to the Goldring guy, who was very informative and non-pushy. It would have cost £800-900 to re-tip etc.

I'm not criticising the cost. But it was too much for me.

I did sell it for a more than reasonable price on eBay rather than buy a Quin Black.

You obviously like the Black. Just get a new one.

 

[Lurch]

@Swann36
Grab this brand new Black S in the classifieds now, then get some muppet on eBay to buy your current one (probably for more than its worth) and end up quids in.
https://www.hifiwigwam.com/threads/...-ortofon-quintet-black-s-mc-cartridge.119677/

 

[Hifimad1]

I love Expert .. if it was me I wouldn't hesitate to get them to retip the only thing I would be asking myself is do I get the sapphire cantilever as well. I have a Decca silver they rebuilt with paratrace and a suprgokd retipped by John Wright with extended fine line. Impossible to tell them apart without direct AB swap where you realise the paratrace has a touch more detail and is a little more airy. If you ask they will fit an extended fine line but I would go with the paratrace

But with a cart that old, the suspension material will be past its design life so a full re-build would be in order.

 

[uzzy]

But with a cart that old, the suspension material will be past its design life so a full re-build would be in order.

Well this is a possibility but Expert will not retip if the suspension is not working properly .. I would add I have an Audio Technica OC5 and Fidelity Research FR1 MK2 that are about 43 years old and the suspensions on each are fine.

If there is a shelf life for the suspension then don't you think all new cartridge boxes should come with date of manufacture?

 

[Slightly Athletic]

Transfiguration Phoenix S
But 6 pages in I don’t know who wants the cartridge anymore

 

[Non-Smoking Man]

I loved the no holds barred debate between Montesquieu and Uzzy. Here you have 2 experienced Wammers at loggerheads going 12 rounds. You dont see this so much these days..
Ive heard a few Paratrace retips in good systems and they sounded fine and the owners are well pleased. On the other hand I respect Tom's account - he does not talk rubbish.

It seems to me that so long as you get a cartridge back that sounds good and is good value against an original it doesn't matter that its not as the manufacturer intended.
The sagging suspension argument (leave alone the older cartridge) does appear to hold some water and it may be the case that loyal brand supporters might hang on longer than they should to venerable designs. Of course the way to see if a cartridge is passed its best is to borrow a newish cart from a mate - that will test your brand loyalty!

Well, I bought Martin Pickles Expert retipped Cadenza Bronze from the classifieds for approx £700 a few months ago - before this debate anyway. Its in a modded Micro Seiki 202 on an SP10. Its done the rounds a bit - a session at Wizmax's against his original Koetsu Black Goldline equipped SP10 (Stax arm) was one holiday. (Honours roughly even..when I had a go with Wizmax's Rubato/Tenuto (whatever) platter mat).

I chose to go with the Cadenza because Martin had pointed out that the tip went awol encountering a scratch that should have been on the other side of the record i.e., he put the wrong side on - the DJ mistake!; more to the point - it (the Ortofon) was nearly new and therefore the suspension is as new.

This is all hearsay - the crunch is coming for my front end at the forthcoming Snoopdog bake off as the Expert retipped Cadenza Bronze will be facing Lurch's excellent Lector, Jonathan's Restek and a.n. other CDPs, with an audience of 20 impartial (that'll be the day!) Wammers...

Will be interesting to say the least..

Jack NSM

 

[rabski]

With a few exceptions, a retip is never going to be or sound the same as the original. Some can be remanufactured by the original maker, including suspension, etc. That's a different thing.

Personally, I would only look at a retip for something irreplaceable (Transfiguration, for example), something so costly that it still has a sensible value as a retip (Koetsu, etc.) or something where the original maker can do it back to original standard (Audio Note, etc.). Anything under £1000 new, I wouldn't bother, because the resale value will take a massive hit and it's hardly a cheap job to get done.

Re suspension, nobody gives a lifetime, because it depends on all sorts of factors. Notably environmental. Rubber (or synthetic varieties) degrades/hardens at massively different rates depending on termperature and humidity for a start.

 

[uzzy]

I loved the no holds barred debate between Montesquieu and Uzzy.

We both have our experiences which are different but each is valid. Alternativce views, in fact all views, are vital for a person seeking to make a decision.

As for me when I see all the reviewers in the magazines agreeing with each other I tend to be very sceptical, as in real life the chances of us all agreeing is very unlikely (as I say one man's sonic nirvana is another man's earache).

Of course if you love Deccas (which I do) all this becomes immaterial as when you have it retipped the armature is replaced as well, so in effect you end up with a new cartridge.

It also makes buying them second hand for around £300 to £400 a no brainer as a retip with an extended fine line stylus for circa £300 effectively gives you a Decca Supergold (retail price over a grand).

 

[Non-Smoking Man]

Uzzy - Ive had a Decca Blue, and two Decca Golds, one of which I had retipped by Mr Wright of Decca Products and returned to mono. The stereo Decca Gold is fitted to an Alphason HR100MCS on one of my Cranfield Rocks.
Of course the Deccas dont have conventional suspension, so can enjoy a long life.

There must be a subtle difference between a person having to choose whether to have a cart retipped and by whom, and a person buying a cartridge that's already been retipped. In the latter case surely its not so important whether it sounds exactly like the original or not, because he or she didnt own it when it was bought. Therefore they are not seeking an original cartridge only one that's value for money, suits their arm and sounds good. And you find that out when you compare it and the rest of your front end with another.

Jack NSM

 

[uzzy]

Uzzy - Ive had a Decca Blue, and two Decca Golds, one of which I had retipped by Mr Wright of Decca Products and returned to mono. The stereo Decca Gold is fitted to an Alphason HR100MCS on one of my Cranfield Rocks.
Of course the Deccas dont have conventional suspension, so can enjoy a long life.

There must be a subtle difference between a person having to choose whether to have a cart retipped and by whom, and a person buying a cartridge that's already been retipped. In the latter case surely its not so important whether it sounds exactly like the original or not, because he or she didnt own it when it was bought. Therefore they are not seeking an original cartridge only one that's value for money, suits their arm and sounds good. And you find that out when you compare it and the rest of your front end with another.

Jack NSM

The Decca armature is metal microns thick .. depending on humidity it can rust away and it is debatable if it is longer lasting. What is certain though is in every rebuild it has a new one unlike the retip process.

All I can tell you from many years experience of Expert Stylus work (we used them often in my time at Guildford HiFi) is that the overall character remains .. comparing say a Denon 103 with an expert retip was the fine line stylus fitted back then took the 103 to a higher level .. more detail and better tracking ,.. we had the facility to compare originals with retips from Expert and we never had an experience of it sounding worse.

Age is a big consideration though and so there is always a risk of suspension collapse on a conventional cartridge. All I know is my 45 year old FR1 MK2 has not shown any signs of collapse and similarly wth a Sony MC that is over 35 years old.