I'm sure that my room isn't large enough either - the 707s are large and the 808s live up to their name!! The 606s are pretty though!
Interesting. How does one know whether or not their room is too small or too large for a certain speaker? Is this a visual thing only or do acoustics come into play too? I have Linn Keltiks in a room of around 6x4 meters in size. They sound immense to me but perhaps my room is too small to do them full justice?
I'd be interested to hear if there's a science behind size of speaker versus size of room.
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I was referring to their visual relationship to the room - the 808s would dominate my room, the 707s would be large and the 606's - well, the porridge would be all eaten up!
I could live with the visual and aesthetic impracticalities of size of speaker versus size of room but I wondered if there was a scientific reason whether size of room and size of speaker should be evaluated prior to purchase purely on grounds of sonics?
There are a number of white papers which address this subject - long story short, not only does room size tend to dictate the size of the speaker which should be considered, it also more or less dictates the amplifier power required to efficiently move air without damaging or destroying the speaker.
While on the topic my only complaint with Linn speakers has been over the years - when driven passively, in certain rooms and with something like 100 watts of Chakra power (as an example), if you really want to get up and boogie (i.e., play the things at party level, which I don't personally do very often, but sometimes you want that), they reach dynamic compression relatively quickly. So they are really better suited as Aktiv/Exakt speakers, which largely removes the limitation.
@zee9 I think all of your options are valid considerations, but as kool-aid drinking Linn fanatic I have always been someone who ultimately knows one should start with the source when possible. I mean I'd go for a Klimax DSM way before considering replacing 140's, personally. I myself have always wanted a front-end heavy Linn system with their cheapest speaker, properly integrated into a suitable room. I'm talking Katans, Tukans, Majik 109's with Klimax level sources (LP12 and DSM), Klimax Exaktboxes feeding them, with Solos for each drive unit, if only to prove a point to any interested passers-by. An Exaktbox Sub with a pair of Linn, REL, JL, Genelec, or some passive Bag End subs with Klimax amps would round that system out quite nicely. Just a different perspective to consider as that has been a long term dream of mine - also something like a Selekt DSM with Exakt'ed 109's has been a system I've been thinking about, as a shorter-term solution.
That being said, I do enjoy (and have enjoyed) exploring other speakers, and I've owned Martin Logan, KEF, B&W, Vienna Acoustics, Era Designs, and PSB speakers over the years. I still use some of them in various areas. I have wanted to explore speakers which support Exakt, such as the Kudos, Manger, and PMC stuff, out of curiosity. I have also wanted to own Harbeth, ATC, Dynaudio, and a number of other brands but one only has so much time and money, and I am one with expensive taste but a frugal budget at the end of the day.
This thread reminds me of the time I heard B&W 802D's passive with Klimax and then Aktiv Exakt and it blew me away. Anyone who owned (or had extensive experience with, which I did) that speaker who would have heard that demo would have seriously questioned whatever else it was they thought was the "correct" electronics to use with B&W speakers. Even the B&W national sales manager at the time happened to hear that system and admitted Aktiv Exakt made the passive system sound broken in comparison. And yet, here in North America, B&W is mostly sold part-and-parcel with a popular electronics brand (which I think anyone who lives here would be able to guess - glowing blue lights and VU meters bring anything to mind?) which does absolutely no justice to the exceptional job B&W has done with their products, still somehow these pairings are touted as being "high performance".
Anyway, @zee9 there are many great options that work well with Linn, I am partial to Linn speakers with Linn electronics, but in general would try to go "source-first" before upgrading speakers. Food for thought.
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I’m in no hurry to replace my Keltiks, but you never know. Maybe future domestic constraints.. I’m quite sold on a Linn front-end at least because of SO, I also prefer Exakt/Aktiv/active solutions over passive. (But then again, the best I ever heard was a passive system; NGKDSM > Solos > Vivid audio).
So interesting options speakerwise @zee9 I’m also curious how the Akudorik holds up against Keltik and the Kudos options. These will let me keep my Katalyst Exakt front end.
However currently I can honestly say that this is the best system I have ever owned. This combination gives such a relaxed, wide, full range well integrated ‘complete’ listen. Especially the full range bass provided is something I never knew I missed. Surely it could be bettered, but at what cost? VFM the Keltiks are unbeatable, at least to my ears plus I’m also more set on Organik for AEBi.
my 2 fanboy cents
So interesting options speakerwise @zee9 I’m also curious how the Akudorik holds up against Keltik and the Kudos options. These will let me keep my Katalyst Exakt front end.
However currently I can honestly say that this is the best system I have ever owned. This combination gives such a relaxed, wide, full range well integrated ‘complete’ listen. Especially the full range bass provided is something I never knew I missed. Surely it could be bettered, but at what cost? VFM the Keltiks are unbeatable, at least to my ears plus I’m also more set on Organik for AEBi.
my 2 fanboy cents
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Churning speakers seems to only result in more churning of speakers.
In my recent experience, I'm thinking that a NG Klimax System Hub with any Exakted speakers downstream will outperform any Linn system without a NG Klimax DSM.
I specifically mentioned visually. With SPACE, I don't think, as long as parameters are within reason such as actual space for them, enough room between them and not stuck in corners, reasonable distance from listener, speakers can be too big for a room.
I think it’s safe to say that 90% of position and room dimension related bass problems are a thing if the past since the introduction of any form or sort digital room EQ like SO, REW, etc.
If one reads review from ‘back in the day’ someone would write that this or that speaker will only fit this or that size-shape room, because of how the speaker works in that particular room, most likely because of overblown bass output. Adding to that the preference for stand mounts in smaller rooms, most likely because they don’t work as hard or don’t show the problem bandwidth. This is IMO the reason why a lot of people prefer 109 over 140 or Katan over Ninka pre-SO days. IMHO you can disregard al lot of pre-digital roomEQ speaker reviews/opinions.
SO remains the game changer for me. When reading about the Keltiks before buying, 90% of opinions seemed to be that they where a PITA to set up and unworkable in small rooms and please leave them alone.. Here they are on the long wall in a 4x8m living room, where M140’s would not work without SO. I’m having a blast with these almost vintage behemoths, needles to say will not part with my or a Linn front-end.
Below the Schröder frequency, where the room dominates, you will have suck-outs as well as peaks. The smaller the room the higher the frequency were you will get 'cabin gain'.
With a stereo pair of speakers any room EQ software is only capable of addressing the peaks. The only way of filling in the valleys is by launching multiple subs, a technique that in itself opens up a whole new can of worms.
In short (and in my experience) too big a speaker too close to the front wall and too close to corners will overpower a room; now apply SO and you will end up with an anemic sounding system. Tune dem before applying SO is still essential to determine if a speaker will work in a given room.
With a stereo pair of speakers any room EQ software is only capable of addressing the peaks. The only way of filling in the valleys is by launching multiple subs, a technique that in itself opens up a whole new can of worms.
In short (and in my experience) too big a speaker too close to the front wall and too close to corners will overpower a room; now apply SO and you will end up with an anemic sounding system. Tune dem before applying SO is still essential to determine if a speaker will work in a given room.
And just like that today the Majik 140’s went to a new owner who is a violist and claims they were exactly what he was looking for.
I’m trying your idea although not at the level you suggested. I have to say these tukans that I picked up for dirt money sound really nice with an Adsm/3 and a 4200/1 bi-amped. There’s also a REL T5i in use.
This is all I have left till the new (to me) speakers are picked up.
Adsm/3 >> Akurate 4200/1 >> Majik 140’s (Silvers/K400)
Maybe I missed it, what speakers are you picking up?This is all I have left till the new (to me) speakers are picked up.
Adsm/3 >> Akurate 4200/1 >> Majik 140’s (Silvers/K400)
Those are good looking stands, what's their story? Also, yes, what new speakers?And just like that today the Majik 140’s went to a new owner who is a violist and claims they were exactly what he was looking for.
I’m trying your idea although not at the level you suggested. I have to say these tukans that I picked up for dirt money sound really nice with an Adsm/3 and a 4200/1 bi-amped. There’s also a REL T5i in use.
This is all I have left till the new (to me) speakers are picked up.
Adsm/3 >> Akurate 4200/1 >> Majik 140’s (Silvers/K400)
Those are target stands made for Kans. not decided on the new speakers as yet. Still doing homework on speakers. The kudos is out though as it’s too far away for a demo.
Adsm/3 >> Akurate 4200/1 >> Majik 140’s (Silvers/K400)
Adsm/3 >> Akurate 4200/1 >> Majik 140’s (Silvers/K400)
I would say that I like linn a lot. The only other speaker that I really enjoyed was the Stenheim Alumine 3 and those are unaffordable.
I’m open to suggestions but looking to buy used.
Adsm/3 >> Akurate 4200/1 >> Majik 140’s (Silvers/K400)
Just curious, I can give you all the brands that I like, won’t help you I’m afraid.. the only sensible thing to do as you still have the MEBi in your stack is to source a pair of ye old Keltiks and call it a day.. but don’t take my word for it…
at least it’s the cheapest route leaving some cash to maybe upgrade the MEBi to Katalyst or Organik.Slap on a KSH in the process to top it of..
The KSH is the next step after the speakers are sorted or atleast that’s the plan.
I have an offer on a KEDSM/1 but haven’t done homework on it vs a KSH
Adsm/3 >> Akurate 4200/1 >> Tukans (Silvers/K400)
I have an offer on a KEDSM/1 but haven’t done homework on it vs a KSH
Adsm/3 >> Akurate 4200/1 >> Tukans (Silvers/K400)
Like Pennypacker, I would definately really consider Keltiks.
Not a fan of the idea with lock-in Exakt so with aktiv cards (possibly with an LK tune box if you can find one, making switching cards, especially old mono vs chakra, easier). Having followed recommendations to stay clear from the chakra mid cards (as they were said to take away what Keltiks should sound like, making the wonderful Keltik mids more like 242s). Chakra bass cards recommended though but traditional mono cards fine as well (though older which may be a negative.)
Have not heard them with an Exaktbox-i (especially what character the mids would have) but since you appear to have one it is an easy start at least.
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