speaker height

[Nopiano]

I don’t use SO. I have never found a setting in SO that sounds better than when it is turned off. I can sit anywhere in my room and my system sounds great. OK, I need to sit somewhere close to centre to get a good soundstage but I don’t need my head to be in a precise position to enjoy it.

That reminds me of one of the best posts I ever read here on the Wam, where sub woofer placement was being discussed. One user said after trying many locations he decided the best place for his sub woofer was back in his Hifi store’s stock room!  

On your substantive point, I agree that it’s far better not to have an amazing ‘hot seat’ sound if that means you can’t enjoy the music throughout the room.  Many years ago when I installed systems, I often sat deliberately off axis to check it was ok, especially if it was intended for the whole family.  

 

[Billz]

I wasn't intending to insult your intelligence, if I did then I'm sorry.

you didn't say anything about what the solution looked like, you appeared to be dismissing things out of hand for reasons which wen't valid. If I misread what you were saying, again I'm sorry.

My point was that your comment demonstrated that you weren't understanding the point that was being made, which is that SO can't correct issues with off-axis responses.

Apology accepted, let’s not fall out about it. I agree SO can’t solve these issues and as I have said, it does seem to solve anything in my room/system and sounds better, to my ears and feet, when turned off. I do know that when I stand up from my sofa, the sound stage is not as good, so their must be something in the height theory, but I think there will be a range where the difference is very minimal.

 

[Phobic]

That reminds me of one of the best posts I ever read here on the Wam, where sub woofer placement was being discussed. One user said after trying many locations he decided the best place for his sub woofer was back in his Hifi store’s stock room!  

On your substantive point, I agree that it’s far better not to have an amazing ‘hot seat’ sound if that means you can’t enjoy the music throughout the room.  Many years ago when I installed systems, I often sat deliberately off axis to check it was ok, especially if it was intended for the whole family.  

spot on.

I'm fortunate that I can set things up very selfishly for just 1 location. I'm also pouring lots of time into optimising things for the hot seat....

 

[Phobic]

Apology accepted, let’s not fall out about it. I agree SO can’t solve these issues and as I have said, it does seem to solve anything in my room/system and sounds better, to my ears and feet, when turned off. I do know that when I stand up from my sofa, the sound stage is not as good, so their must be something in the height theory, but I think there will be a range where the difference is very minimal.

1 other related point, and this is not something which I've read about in detail I've just seen it mentioned from time to time.

There is a school of thinking that some people are "super listeners", in the same way that there are "super tasters", I don't know if there is any truth in this or hard science, but I do seem to have extremely sensitive hearing, much more than anyone else I know (include my wife who listens to the same system). The slightest noise wakes me up, always has, and I can spot very very small changes in the sound without A+B testing.

I'm well aware of all the various bias affects that can play into this but even accounting for that I'm either hyper sensitive or over the years I've somehow managed to train my ears to spot things - not sure which

 

[Paulssurround]

That reminds me of one of the best posts I ever read here on the Wam, where sub woofer placement was being discussed. One user said after trying many locations he decided the best place for his sub woofer was back in his Hifi store’s stock room!  

On your substantive point, I agree that it’s far better not to have an amazing ‘hot seat’ sound if that means you can’t enjoy the music throughout the room.  Many years ago when I installed systems, I often sat deliberately off axis to check it was ok, especially if it was intended for the whole family.  

When I was traveling around do Space Optimisation, I would often listen to the music in an adjacent room for a few minutes to see how it sounded.

‘If it sounded good in the adjacent room, it was a good indication of being well set up.

1 other related point, and this is not something which I've read about in detail I've just seen it mentioned from time to time.

There is a school of thinking that some people are "super listeners", in the same way that there are "super tasters", I don't know if there is any truth in this or hard science, but I do seem to have extremely sensitive hearing, much more than anyone else I know (include my wife who listens to the same system). The slightest noise wakes me up, always has, and I can spot very very small changes in the sound without A+B testing.

I'm well aware of all the various bias affects that can play into this but even accounting for that I'm either hyper sensitive or over the years I've somehow managed to train my ears to spot things - not sure which

I believe I fit into the “super listener” category, and have a few other audio friends like that as well here

 

[Nopiano]

When I was traveling around do Space Optimisation, I would often listen to the music in an adjacent room for a few minutes to see how it sounded.

‘If it sounded good in the adjacent room, it was a good indication of being well set up.

Very true, Paul. In my Hifi store days my boss was infuriatingly and unfailingly accurate in knowing what gear was on, even before he entered the demo room.  He’d return from lunch and ask “Has Mike put on the Harman/kardon 930?” or something similar!

 

[Paulssurround]

I need to listen to them more, however at the moment it's the change in height which is dominating things I think. The sound is much fuller, I've not yet found anywhere that has an on axis measurements for the Akubariks, but I suspect previously that the tweeter and super tweeter don't have a wide enough vertical off-axis response to be able to handle how tall I am.

I'd say the lower end is richer somehow too.

got to spend more time with them to try to pinpoint exactly what's altered I think. Will report back once I've better figured things out.

I'd originally ordered a pair of subdude-ht's but there was trouble sourcing them in the UK, it was going to take 6-8 weeks. but after stumbling on these that were taller I thought it was a great way to kill 2 birds.

I'm still planing on moving to Gaias in the future, just need to figure out an acceptable way to increase the height of the speakers when I do. Something for me to do once the new listening room is up and running as i'll be changing the seating as well.

what kind of floor do you have? I've seen before what you describe with people who have concrete flooring.

I have a concrete floor and ceiling, living in a high rise building 

My walls have metal studs, which some might consider a Faraday cage

I have to decouple my speakers from the floor to mitigate bass from my neighbour, in the apartment below mine.

It presents a unique challenge for speaker setup 

 

[Phobic]

I have a concrete floor and ceiling, living in a high rise building 

My walls have metal studs, which some might consider a Faraday cage

I have to decouple my speakers from the floor to mitigate bass from my neighbour, in the apartment below mine.

It presents a unique challenge for speaker setup 

good point, that's another good reason why people decouple. 

 

[akamatsu]

I believe I fit into the “super listener” category, and have a few other audio friends like that as well here

This sounds like the expectation bias that creates expectation bias. "I'm a super listener so I hear things that others can't."

 

[Johannes]

I have a concrete floor and ceiling, living in a high rise building 

My walls have metal studs, which some might consider a Faraday cage

I have to decouple my speakers from the floor to mitigate bass from my neighbour, in the apartment below mine.

It presents a unique challenge for speaker setup 

I have different experience. At first my neighbour always complained and it was not so loud. The better the system became, the less he complained. At some point I made it loud and there was no more trouble. That means the more controlled the system is, the less you can get through walls and floors.

 

[Paulssurround]

I have different experience. At first my neighbour always complained and it was not so loud. The better the system became, the less he complained. At some point I made it loud and there was no more trouble. That means the more controlled the system is, the less you can get through walls and floors.

That is my thinking as well, that the better my system sounds that the less extraneous bass travels through the walls and floors.

 

[Phobic]

This sounds like the expectation bias that creates expectation bias. "I'm a super listener so I hear things that others can't."

I'm not convinced it is, as an example, I have extremely good sound localisation ability compared to my wife. I can spot the low volume high pitched hum of a PSU and locate it as soon as I walk into a room, my wife will struggle to hear it even when she's sat next to it.

She's 10 years younger than me and has excellent hearing

 

[akamatsu]

I'm not convinced it is, as an example, I have extremely good sound localisation ability compared to my wife. I can spot the low volume high pitched hum of a PSU and locate it as soon as I walk into a room, my wife will struggle to hear it even when she's sat next to it.

She's 10 years younger than me and has excellent hearing

So, in other words, you hear things that others can't.

 

[Phobic]

So, in other words, you hear things that others can't.

I'm not sure it's a black and white as that, there are many different components in how we listen, I've not looked into the detail of it but I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that different people have different sensitives to those dimensions, just in the same way that some people have a better sense of smell or direction.

might make an interesting experiment if there were an online test that we could take

 

[Billz]

There is a school of thinking that some people are "super listeners", in the same way that there are "super tasters", I don't know if there is any truth in this or hard science, but I do seem to have extremely sensitive hearing, much more than anyone else I know (include my wife who listens to the same system). The slightest noise wakes me up, always has, and I can spot very very small changes in the sound without A+B testing.

I'm well aware of all the various bias affects that can play into this but even accounting for that I'm either hyper sensitive or over the years I've somehow managed to train my ears to spot things - not sure which

I too think I have very good hearing. In my mid 60’s with failing eyesight, I am thankful that my hearing is still good enough for me to enjoy my HiFi. I’m not so sure I can hear much from the super tweeter in my Akudoriks 3k array, but I instantly know if something has changed for the better or worse when listening to my system. When everything in my lounge is switched off, I hear the hard drive in my Sky box clattering away, my wife can’t hear it. I asked my son if he could hear when he visited a while back and at first he said no, he could hear it he said if he concentrated on it. He has the same Sky box in his flat and said it doesn’t make a noise. It does. I here rattles in cars that no one else hears and like @Phobic I get woken up very easily. I do think years of listening to music through good gear makes you a good listener and gives you heightened hearing.

 

[Jail4CEOs2]

You may not think you hear your super tweeters Bill, but try to disconnect them and report back. Zee experimented with this, so I thought I'd try. The experiment for me lasted no more than ten seconds before they were reconnected!

 

[Phobic]

Can you describe the difference in sound quality with the isolation platforms?

Spent 5 hours today redoing SO from the ground up - I found I had to zero everything and start again with the platforms. The changes needed in SO were quite significant in the end.

Before the platforms:- Optimisation 80:20 Wall +35 Floor +15 Ceiling -50 Single glazing +30 Double glazing -50

After the platforms:-    Optimisation 65:35 Wall +15 Floor +20 Ceiling -50 Single glazing +50 Double glazing -25

1st thoughts on the sound difference that the platforms make:- fuller sound (I think this is more about the height than anything, previously things sounded a bit thin unless I slouched down), there's loads more clarity, less decay, things are sharper & less blurred.

really quite happy.

need to get some proper listening hours in but so far I'm quite impressed

 

[Jail4CEOs2]

Which part of the 3K is now at ear level?

 

[Nopiano]

The changes needed in SO were quite significant in the end.

Does that mean you used SO to adjust tonally to suit you, because the absorption of the room surely didn’t change?

I did tweak my SO when I realised I’d defaulted to one decimal place on speaker height from floor. I’d got 0.1m entered but the plinths are only 4cm, so I’ve now used 0.04m.  It projects the midrange a bit better now, by reducing the bass presumably because SO assumes the closer position to the floor with emphasise the bass slightly.  I prefer it as it was at the moment.  But the beauty of SO is it’s easy to switch between two profiles. 

 

[Phobic]

Which part of the 3K is now at ear level?

The mid driver's still below ear level. I'd guess without measuring it ear level is about level with top of the 3k housing now. 

Does that mean you used SO to adjust tonally to suit you, because the absorption of the room surely didn’t change?

Yes, in fact I more look at SO as doing just that, different elements adjust the curve in different ways, here's an old REW graph showing things, though it's from before I knew what I was really doing, might be a dodgy mic too, and the listening position was different, but you get the idea.

I've not checked this yet but I wonder if SO also does something to change the delay from each driver. 

I did tweak my SO when I realised I’d defaulted to one decimal place on speaker height from floor. I’d got 0.1m entered but the plinths are only 4cm, so I’ve now used 0.04m.  It projects the midrange a bit better now, by reducing the bass presumably because SO assumes the closer position to the floor with emphasise the bass slightly.  I prefer it as it was at the moment.  But the beauty of SO is it’s easy to switch between two profiles. 

I wonder if this is partly due to the delay factor as well. I'm a little hesitant because the more and more I poke SO the more I think it's more granular that people perceive, you'd need to see what height change the "it's the same profile" bug kicks in.

I've not done the maths, at some point changes in 3 dimensional positioning are going to have minimal impact depending on wavelength. Clearly the higher frequencies are going to be effected more by positional changes, however SO targets lower frequencies. Not sure how high a frequency (does anyone know?) but looking at the wavelength might help us target what movement is significant. Previously from memory I think moving the speakers less than 10cm caused the "it's the same profile" bug to occur, so that's less that 800Mhz. Maybe that's near to the limit given the graph above shows a change at 500Mhz or 3cm.

I've got a couple of 10mm MDF wrapped sheets coming this week to help with the stability on these platforms, once they're in I'll do a bit more tweaking, mainly I think this will be virtual tune dem - I don't think I want to push the speakers any higher than they are to be honest, I think things will get too unstable, and anyway if I slouch a little now the improvement is very marginal, think using SO is more sensible.