Speakers vs The Track That's Playing

[hiesteem]

Can you tell me how to do this .... or point me at a tutorial that will show me how to learn?
I'm very new to Dirac and still struggling to get my head round the basics of it, I've only very recently found out how to make the target curve live so you can move it.

Had a quick look at your bass trap links, I had enough of a problem getting floor standers past the wife ..... if I tried something like that you'd need to be building another box, slightly longer in length to remove me from the house in for the final time



I did try them very recently (think I mentioned earlier in the thread) and whilst overall impressions were positive, they didn't address the specific issue I'm having and think I need to resolve that 1st ... I'd definitely try them again though when I've resolved the current issues.

Slightly more general question, am I likely to have this issue with all floor standers I tried or is this simply a mis-match of the room with my current ones and changing them may resolve the problem?
Is there any other way I can identify what it is i.e. measuring with REW or something ... although if I do that I wouldn't know how to interpret the readings nor what could be done to resolve it.

Terry Ellis is a Dirac calibrator. He has a you tube channel called pursuit of perfect Systems. He is an expert and if you are willing to pay he will likely identify your problem as a whole including any room issues.

 

[Witterings]

You could collect the tracks you have some issues with and try to play them on a different system. If those tracks sound too bassy and muddy on a different system, chances are they are not well produced and it's in the mastering.

I have done that and yes they're bassy tracks for sure but I'm not getting the revereration that's overpowering and making it hard to listen to.

A quick google search has shown there are hundreds of these type of videos on YouTube . However I think a good starting point would be this one which is the official DIRAC guide to using their software .

Thank you for that ... it's the video I used as a reference point to re-run Dirac the other day. There are certainly quite a few on setting up / taking measurements and as per the link but none really go into setting parameters.
If I take @MartinC 's comment below

but it totally dominates the track in my room without EQ due to a ~37 Hz room mode. I can totally 'fix' this with Dirac and I'm sure you could too by addressing this specific frequency range.

What's a ~37 Hz room mode and how do I identify if I have similar ..... and once I have how do I "fix" it.

 

[Witterings]

Terry Ellis is a Dirac calibrator. He has a you tube channel called pursuit of perfect Systems. He is an expert and if you are willing to pay he will likely identify your problem as a whole including any room issues.

Cheers for that and have dropped him an e-mail

 

[tuga]

What's a ~37 Hz room mode and how do I identify if I have similar ..... and once I have how do I "fix" it.

Different rooms will excite (peaks) or cancel (nulls) different frequencies.
You'll need to perform room measurements in order to determine which are which.
To fix peaks you can EQ but nulls need acoustic/physical correction.

 

[bencat]

If you look at the graph DIRAC made for your curve it is divided in to Hz and kHz bands each of these has a value attached to it . If you look at the dark lines shown on the graph these are the actual readings for your system without correction . You will notice that they are often like a mountain range all ups and downs . The ideal is for this to be as flat and even as possible . However if the out out was a full flat line while it may ideal as measured the actual sound you would hear is frankly boring and very bland . Know in Martin's case he has a peak spike. In his room at 37Hz which he has to smooth but making the line flat in that area . When making adjustments you can ignore any peaks above the base line as if you have the flat they will be adjusted to what they should be . The Area you have to careful is were any readings are below the base line . You are only able to correct small drops here as this used lots of amplifier power to correct and could set your amplifier in to over load in trying to fill in the losses . Instead you should make your curve as smooth as possible and as close to your natural room readings . This only really applied to the bass area and not n the treble . I hope this makes a little sense . Not sure were you are but if it would help would be only too happy to visit and show you things that makes this all clear . Failing that if you call in to mine or Tonys room at the Wam Show we will both be using DIRAC and be happy to show you things if we can .

 

[tuga]

You are only able to correct small drops here as this used lots of amplifier power to correct and could set your amplifier in to over load in trying to fill in the losses .

In fact a dip will/can not be corrected by EQ no matter how much power you put into it because the null will always cancel the speaker output at the listening spot.

 

[Jules_S]

In fact a dip will/can not be corrected by EQ no matter how much power you put into it because the null will always cancel the speaker output at the listening spot.

Presumably, @tuga moving the position of the speakers and / or listening position relative to the room boundaries could help minimise nulls, because you would be altering the point in space where the waveforms interact to cause the cancellation? I'm guessing that, given the wavelengths involved for the low frequencies, these would have to be relatively large changes in position for it to have an impact? No point in adjusting by millimetres and expecting a massive improvement, I am guessing?

 

[tuga]

Presumably, @tuga moving the position of the speakers and / or listening position relative to the room boundaries could help minimise nulls, because you would be altering the point in space where the waveforms interact to cause the cancellation? I'm guessing that, given the wavelengths involved for the low frequencies, these would have to be relatively large changes in position for it to have an impact? No point in adjusting by millimetres and expecting a massive improvement, I am guessing?

In my experience you need to move more than a few centimetres.
My approach is to first find the best position for speakers and listening spot, if possible.
For that I will put the mic where I think that it might sound good and then move one of the speakers back-forth and sideways and also the mic back and forth untill I get the smoothest and best balanced response below 300Hz. Then I EQ the 2 or 3 large peaks off in this range. I don't EQ above that.

 

[tuga]

Here I am moving the microphone away from the front wall in 0.20m steps (starting from 2.5m and moving up to 3.5m):

 

[TIU]

Cheers for that and have dropped him an e-mail

I did that a while ago and he replied saying he was puzzled about on which of my gear was Dirac installed on. Err, what a plonker I am.

 

[Witterings]

WOWSERS .... What a difference a day can make ... as the saying goes.

As I wasn't overly confident in adjustin the curves myself thought I'd try something else and used the Harman Curves.
Harman 8 I probably prefer to the default that Dirac produced, it's weid because the mids / vocals are possibly the smidge brighter than the default but despite this the overall sound seems richer / warmer and will be my "go to" probably for 95% of music although did still produce "the boom" with the tracks I know to be bad.
I then tried the Harman 4 Curve and it's got rid of the boom altogether so I'm one happy bunny

I will keep playing with it though as I think it's good to learn more about and understand and see if I can produce a curve myself that I personally think betters the Harman ones and don't have to swap between the different ones for different tracks and will try their 6 more extensively as well although initial impressions were it fell between the cracks.

A huge thank you though to everyone for their help, patience and input, really is appreciated and helped make me a happy camper

 

[MartinC]

In fact a dip will/can not be corrected by EQ no matter how much power you put into it because the null will always cancel the speaker output at the listening spot.

This is true of a perfect null but not actually for typical dips seen when people measure real in-room frequency responses. In essentially all real-world situations boosts will increase the level in the dip. That's not to say that it's wise to start trying to correct really deep minima (it isn't) but Dirac will apply boosts of up to 10 dB and this is not pointless.

Just try it if you never have.

 

[MartinC]

I then tried the Harman 4 Curve and it's got rid of the boom altogether so I'm one happy bunny

Sorry I've been busy and so only just got back to this thread. Glad you sound like you've made good progress .

As you've found, all I was really saying above that you needed to do was to reduce the level of the target curve in the bass region, which I believe is what you've done by going between those two Harman curves . The only thing I'll add is that if you haven't already do sometime experiment with only applying EQ in below about 150 Hz (by dragging the right frequency limit 'curtain' to the left'). Some prefer this whilst others don't. Just something to experiment with to see where your preference falls. It's fixing bass issues that is the real strength of the likes of Dirac Live though.

 

[tuga]

This is true of a perfect null but not actually for typical dips seen when people measure real in-room frequency responses. In essentially all real-world situations boosts will increase the level in the dip. That's not to say that it's wise to start trying to correct really deep minima (it isn't) but Dirac will apply boosts of up to 10 dB and this is not pointless.

Just try it if you never have.

I don’t apply high-Q filters below 200Hz so in my case boosting dips will do more harm than good.
Have not tried Dirac, I make my own P-EQ filters on REW.

 

[MartinC]

I don’t apply high-Q filters below 200Hz so in my case boosting dips will do more harm than good.
Have not tried Dirac, I make my own P-EQ filters on REW.

I went from manual PEQ to Dirac and as I type am actually listening to music with a combination of the two in use. The point about being able to boost minima is a general one though. If you try it I'm sure you'll see that raising the level of minima is possible. Whether it's a good idea or not is a different discussion .

 

[tuga]

I went from manual PEQ to Dirac and as I type am actually listening to music with a combination of the two in use. The point about being able to boost minima is a general one though. If you try it I'm sure you'll see that raising the level of minima is possible. Whether it's a good idea or not is a different discussion .

Do/can you use the moving microphone method with Dirac?

 

[MartinC]

Do/can you use the moving microphone method with Dirac?

Dirac uses an array of multiple static measurement positions, which I would argue is superior to just waving a microphone around.

 

[tuga]

Dirac uses an array of multiple static measurement positions, which I would argue is superior to just waving a microphone around.

I had a KRK DAC many tem ears ago which used Lyngdorf’s room perfect correction system and I had to place the mic at different heights and positions.
I see no benefit in that method except for achieving a more balanced response over a wider than one seat sweet spot.
Have Dirac written anything about why they measure over such a large area?

 

[MartinC]

I had a KRK DAC many tem ears ago which used Lyngdorf’s room perfect correction system and I had to place the mic at different heights and positions.
I see no benefit in that method except for achieving a more balanced response over a wider than one seat sweet spot.
Have Dirac written anything about why they measure over such a large area?

It's up to the user how large the measurement volume is, along with the number of points used. One key reason to use static measurements is that it makes the level matching, time delay adjustment and phase response elements of Dirac Live possible.