Streamers without Dacs..Sound Quality Differences?

[bencat]

It seems logical to me that improving what goes into the system (the source) would improve what comes out of the speakers. 
 

I can’t think why anyone would think it doesn’t matter unless they think it’s just 1s and 0s.

You mean its not ? :minikev:

 

[DomT]

I take you at your word so I thought you might extend the same courtesy to me. 

I swapped from an old Cambridge streamer to  direct USB feed  from a Surface Pro then vis Stack Audio link II in clean USB  mode to NUC i7 into the Link II via ethernet. The Link II was powered initially from my bench (smps) then the supplied SMPS and finally their linear supply. In my system with my ears they all sounded the same.

If subjective sighted comparison is king then my experience is as valid as any other. You may well have better hearing or more experience than me but that does not invalidate my findings.

Regards Andrew 

I wasn’t dismissing what you said; I accept it absolutely. But was curious given that we have the same DAC and now you have provided more information about your signal chain. I don’t understand the technical side of this but maybe someone can make a technical determination as to why you didn’t hear a difference; or maybe it’s just that different people hear things differently (no criticism intended or implied)!

 

[andrew s]

I wasn’t dismissing what you said; I accept it absolutely. But was curious given that we have the same DAC and now you have provided more information about your signal chain. I don’t understand the technical side of this but maybe someone can make a technical determination as to why you didn’t hear a difference; or maybe it’s just that different people hear things differently (no criticism intended or implied)!

Accepted. I have deliberately not trained my hearing as "simply" listening to the music rather than the system is my priority. I fully accept we all have different innate sensory abilities and that we can train our senses beyond the population norm. From your posts it seems that this is likely in your case.

Regards Andrew 

 

[Griff500]

Totally logical but it is assuming the changes do improve what is going in and if they do it makes an audible difference.

I know this is not popular on this site but without unsighted trials reported differences are potentially open to psychological bias.

That comment should not of course be seen as a criticism of anyone or what they choose to do or believe it just my opinion.

Regards Andrew 

When I tried this it was two different streamers into the same system on the same day in the same room and my bias was that it should not make any difference, yet I heard it very clearly.

People can make claims for all sorts of bias affecting what we perceive but at the end of the day I’ll trust my ears as I listen to the music with them…

 

[DomT]

Accepted. I have deliberately not trained my hearing as "simply" listening to the music rather than the system is my priority. I fully accept we all have different innate sensory abilities and that we can train our senses beyond the population norm. From your posts it seems that this is likely in your case.

Regards Andrew 

I also have not trained my listening. But as a musician and producer certain musical things jump out at me and I can comment on them. The hifi elements hold no interest for me and I wouldn’t know where to start talking about them. 

 

[garn63]

So are we talking about "soul" ?     Some systems do not convey this when they should on pieces of music I am familiar with. I guess I am actually talking about timbre/rhythm & timing ( or a realness) if that's the way some would describe it.  Some listeners have very analytical minds & demand the ultimate resolution over everything else.  It's a funny old world hifi isnt it, but imo all of us shouldn't dismiss the guy who loves his music but listens on an inexpensive system.  Usually the go to guy to recommend  good music ? 

 

[DomT]

So are we talking about "soul" ?     Some systems do not convey this when they should on pieces of music I am familiar with. I guess I am actually talking about timbre/rhythm & timing ( or a realness) if that's the way some would describe it.  Some listeners have very analytical minds & demand the ultimate resolution over everything else.  It's a funny old world hifi isnt it, but imo all of us shouldn't dismiss the guy who loves his music but listens on an inexpensive system.  Usually the go to guy to recommend  good music ? 

I’m not talking about ‘soul’ for me it’s timbre and musical expression.

 

[Bigwig07]

As good as anything? What have you compared it to?

I've tried Cambridge CXN V2 & 851N but couldn't really get on with them, and preferred my other DAC's. 

 

[Bigwig07]

As good as absolutely ANYTHING? or do you mean as good as anything in the same price bracket? or do you mean as good as anything else you personally have heard?

I did own a Chromecast Audio and thought it was remarkable for the price but was easily surpassed by other admittedly much more expensive devices.

This is from my own experience, and I cold be wrong, but I believe the quality of the DAC and power supply is more important than the streamer.

What wireless streamer would be better than a CCA - say into the same high quality DAC ?

 

[DomT]

This is from my own experience, and I cold be wrong, but I believe the quality of the DAC and power supply is more important than the streamer.

What wireless streamer would be better than a CCA - say into the same high quality DAC ?

You may be right. In my case I went from a Benchmark DAC 1 to a DAC2. I have more detail and it was a bit smoother but the musicians were not ‘playing better’. Now that I have the Innuos and have run through quite a few albums, albums that I have played for many years and know really well, I can say that my change in streamer from Auralic Mini (£500) to Innuos Zen Mini mk3 (£1100) has changed how the musicians are playing. Bonkers right?

A good example of this is Steve Jansen or Stewart Copeland’s bass drum playing; it has more ‘feel’ to it, more syncopated, more expression. There are also some textural and bits and pieces but I mainly got it for the musical expression that is coming through more.

I have no idea why it’s happening but that’s what I am hearing. And it’s ok if others don’t hear it but it’s worth keeping an open mind and having a listen. 

 

[Griff500]

What wireless streamer would be better than a CCA - say into the same high quality DAC ?

If you are talking about streaming from your phone to your system then I would have thought that's going to be somewhat limiting regardless of what device you are streaming to.

Perhaps I have misunderstood, but I think a CCA can be improved upon. I had one years ago and it was a neat and cheap way of allowing people to play music from their phone into the system I had at that time.

 

[Southeastern]

What wireless streamer would be better than a CCA - say into the same high quality DAC ?

Pretty much any of them tbh. I have one of those Chromecasts here, in comparison to even a basic Node, it's inferior. To my Naim, its hugely inferior when used into my Aqua LA Voce S3.

But hey, if you're happy with it, then you crack on, no one needs to judge. If happiness comes from what you have, then there is no reason to look further.

 

[Fourlegs]

Pretty much any of them tbh. I have one of those Chromecasts here, in comparison to even a basic Node, it's inferior. To my Naim, its hugely inferior when used into my Aqua LA Voce S3.

But hey, if you're happy with it, then you crack on, no one needs to judge. If happiness comes from what you have, then there is no reason to look further.

Yep, agreed with all that. 

 

[Fourlegs]

What wireless streamer would be better than a CCA - say into the same high quality DAC ?

More or less anything. I am sorry but the CCA does not set a very high bar. I only have two DACs here now, the Qutest and the Dave. Both can easily differentiate from the CCA and other sources.

 

[Bigwig07]

On the Chromecast audio puck, I'd like to think it could be improved upon for wireless streaming but I'm not convinced. I stream from Tidal/Spotify/Qobuz etc from an ipad. The trick with the CCA is to make sure you have the high quality stream turned on, and to use a digital optical cable into the DAC not the standard audio wire. I think on Tidal it's almost as good as CD.

It sounds very very good, and I've compared it with - 

Cambridge 851n - Bluetooth was clearly inferior. There is no chromecast on the 851n, so i tried the CCA puck into the 851n as a DAC - but preferred what my Marantz DAC did.

Cambridge CXNV2 - Bluetooth as above. Chromecast was very good but no better than the puck, and again i preferred the DAC on the Marantz.

Both the Cambridges are very well respected and of course had some nice other features and functionability (eg internet radio - which sounded not great, and network music playing - which i don't do).I didn't try Apple Airplay or Spotify Direct though.

Arcam Rblink - Bluetooth streamer - clearly inferior

Roksan Oxygene - It's party trick speciality is fantastic bluetooth ability (for some reason), which is on a par with chromecast. The amp is very good but not quite up to my others though.

Am i missing something ? I've spent money trying alternatives, and I think the opposition to my views just sounds like people trying to justify the £k's they have spent. I suspect that if i spent thousands on a Naim or Cambridge Audio Edge they would sound no better than the CCA directly into their DACs.

The DAC is they key - and using the CCA into my Marantz SA14S1SE CD used as a DAC or my Chord 2Qute produces excellent results.

The one problem with chromecast is it can disconnect itself from the stream sometimes so you lose control of next track, stop etc and it just carries on playing. You have to close and reopen the app which is very annoying.

So any suggestions for better wireless sound quality gratefully received !

 

[Southeastern]

On the Chromecast audio puck, I'd like to think it could be improved upon for wireless streaming but I'm not convinced. I stream from Tidal/Spotify/Qobuz etc from an ipad. The trick with the CCA is to make sure you have the high quality stream turned on, and to use a digital optical cable into the DAC not the standard audio wire. I think on Tidal it's almost as good as CD.

It sounds very very good, and I've compared it with - 

Cambridge 851n - Bluetooth was clearly inferior. There is no chromecast on the 851n, so i tried the CCA puck into the 851n as a DAC - but preferred what my Marantz DAC did.

Cambridge CXNV2 - Bluetooth as above. Chromecast was very good but no better than the puck, and again i preferred the DAC on the Marantz.

Both the Cambridges are very well respected and of course had some nice other features and functionability (eg internet radio - which sounded not great, and network music playing - which i don't do).I didn't try Apple Airplay or Spotify Direct though.

Arcam Rblink - Bluetooth streamer - clearly inferior

Roksan Oxygene - It's party trick speciality is fantastic bluetooth ability (for some reason), which is on a par with chromecast. The amp is very good but not quite up to my others though.

Am i missing something ? I've spent money trying alternatives, and I think the opposition to my views just sounds like people trying to justify the £k's they have spent. I suspect that if i spent thousands on a Naim or Cambridge Audio Edge they would sound no better than the CCA directly into their DACs.

The DAC is they key - and using the CCA into my Marantz SA14S1SE CD used as a DAC or my Chord 2Qute produces excellent results.

The one problem with chromecast is it can disconnect itself from the stream sometimes so you lose control of next track, stop etc and it just carries on playing. You have to close and reopen the app which is very annoying.

So any suggestions for better wireless sound quality gratefully received !

Maybe a hearing test?

I don't need to justify the ££ i spent, as I actually planned to downsize/downcost my streamer, which was the point of this thread, sadly , because of the SQ difference, it's not something I am doing now. The loss of quality was too severe, and if I had to live with the CCA I have, I'd just sell everything and just have a Naim Muso.

My Dac is a £3.5k DAC, so I fairly confident it does its job reasonably well, far above the Chord 2Qute, which is, imo, pretty crap. (I moved that tinbox on within a week). Ive owned an 851N and it was ok, but easy to improve on.

I never use Bluetooth as thats not hifi and should never really be used other than to a speaker box in the kitchen when cooking up dinner.

I suggest getting a home demo of some higher end streamers and dacs, and if you still can't hear any difference, then be happy that you don't need to spend anymore dollars than what you have and just enjoy the tunes.

 

[Fourlegs]

On the Chromecast audio puck, I'd like to think it could be improved upon for wireless streaming but I'm not convinced. I stream from Tidal/Spotify/Qobuz etc from an ipad. The trick with the CCA is to make sure you have the high quality stream turned on, and to use a digital optical cable into the DAC not the standard audio wire. I think on Tidal it's almost as good as CD.

It sounds very very good, and I've compared it with - 

Cambridge 851n - Bluetooth was clearly inferior. There is no chromecast on the 851n, so i tried the CCA puck into the 851n as a DAC - but preferred what my Marantz DAC did.

Cambridge CXNV2 - Bluetooth as above. Chromecast was very good but no better than the puck, and again i preferred the DAC on the Marantz.

Both the Cambridges are very well respected and of course had some nice other features and functionability (eg internet radio - which sounded not great, and network music playing - which i don't do).I didn't try Apple Airplay or Spotify Direct though.

Arcam Rblink - Bluetooth streamer - clearly inferior

Roksan Oxygene - It's party trick speciality is fantastic bluetooth ability (for some reason), which is on a par with chromecast. The amp is very good but not quite up to my others though.

Am i missing something ? I've spent money trying alternatives, and I think the opposition to my views just sounds like people trying to justify the £k's they have spent. I suspect that if i spent thousands on a Naim or Cambridge Audio Edge they would sound no better than the CCA directly into their DACs.

The DAC is they key - and using the CCA into my Marantz SA14S1SE CD used as a DAC or my Chord 2Qute produces excellent results.

The one problem with chromecast is it can disconnect itself from the stream sometimes so you lose control of next track, stop etc and it just carries on playing. You have to close and reopen the app which is very annoying.

So any suggestions for better wireless sound quality gratefully received !

If you genuinely cannot hear any difference then count yourself lucky and save the money. There is no point trying to convince you. A wammer came to my house yesterday to compare his Aries Mini to my Innuos Zen Mini which I was selling. The differences between them were as clear as night and day. (He bought my Zen Mini as it happens.) Maybe he should have bought a CCA?

 

[Bigwig07]

If you genuinely cannot hear any difference then count yourself lucky and save the money. There is no point trying to convince you. A wammer came to my house yesterday to compare his Aries Mini to my Innuos Zen Mini which I was selling. The differences between them were as clear as night and day. (He bought my Zen Mini as it happens.) Maybe he should have bought a CCA?

Well I'm glad he followed his ears, which is what I've always done 

 

[DomT]

It always interesting to read differences of opinions. I imagine that people who can’t hear differences think that those of us who do are mad and vice versa.

But actually nobody is mad and people have different experiences and listen for and value different things. But it must be confusing for people new to streaming to read a thread like this and work out who is right.

The answer is that all opinions are right as people hear what they hear. The best thing to do is to try things out and if you like it then fine and if not you have saved money as others have said. 

And my last point is that everyone finds their optimum level of performance and value no matter whether it’s a CCA or Innuos Statement etc. I heard Nick’s £5k Innuos streamer and I said to Nick that’s technically better but not for me in my system. These things are always a balance based on what type of music and how we like it presented. 

 

[Griff500]

Well I'm glad he followed his ears, which is what I've always done 

Exactly as you should and if you are happy with your setup then that's great.  :^

Streaming from your phone to a CCA isn't going to be as good as a dedicated streamer, assuming your DAC can show the benefits. 

The CCA is very good for the money in terms of making it easy to stream from your phone into your system but there are definitely better options out there.

The most important thing is that you're enjoying the music.  :^