The Class A/B and D Conclusion UPDATE Luxman Arrival

[Rockchild]

These little p3 harbies sound devine on the end of your luxman jon......

Lol. Don’t rub it in! I should have kept it

 

[greybeard]

Jon I have found very similar comparisons to you, albiet with a lot more power on tap (875wpc into 4ohms) , since I went to class D, Hypex modules and six channels for 3 way active duty. I find it very neutral, with great detail, but not harsh. The bass is by far the deepest with fantastic control, and you find yourself listening at higher levels as there seems to be very little distortion at higher volumes.

 

[hiesteem]

I think the findings here with the Primare matching the speakers shows the importance of system matching.
Although experience tells me long term listening is the real test.

This seems to be the case over on the HUG Forum although I don’t like AS dictating lol
I wonder what amps they will be using at the Bristol show?

I want to make sure I don’t loose the emotional element of the sound so tomorrow’s session will tell me that. I don’t expect it to be the same but different but in a good way.

He usually uses a Hegel 190.

 

[Bigwig07]

This seems to be the case over on the HUG Forum although I don’t like AS dictating lol
I wonder what amps they will be using at the Bristol show?

I want to make sure I don’t loose the emotional element of the sound so tomorrow’s session will tell me that. I don’t expect it to be the same but different but in a good way.

Hi RC, I was in Bristol yesterday, and Harbeth had 3 rooms - all with Hegel H390's.
P3 ESR XD, 30.2's, and the big 40's (?). All sounded excellent of course.
Alan Shaw was there.
I can never understand though why he has a budget front end - Marantz sa6005 series i think it was, but the guys doing the demo were using some kind of Denon DAC instead.
Slightly off topic.

 

[hearhere]

Thanks for the review. I'm not at all surprised that the Class D Primare won out, because modern Class D amp technology (if well implemented) has caught up and surpassed all but the most ridiculously costly A or AB designs in terms of sound quality and sheer musical entertainment.

I'd love you to do a Class D shootout with perhaps the Primare and the NAD M23 or M33 and perhaps a third one in similar price range. I chose the NAD above the other amps I tried in the £3-8K range

The ostriches should get their heads out of the ground and take note.

 

[DomT]

Thanks for the review. I'm not at all surprised that the Class D Primare won out, because modern Class D amp technology (if well implemented) has caught up and surpassed all but the most ridiculously costly A or AB designs in terms of sound quality and sheer musical entertainment.

I'd love you to do a Class D shootout with perhaps the Primare and the NAD M23 or M33 and perhaps a third one in similar price range. I chose the NAD above the other amps I tried in the £3-8K range

The ostriches should get their heads out of the ground and take note.

I don’t believe that Jon @Rockchild has reached a conclusion yet. In my contribution I said that the class D Marantz PM10 drove the Harbeths better than the Accuphase. But this is not the full story. Jon will report back on his final findings but in my case in my own thread I said that over all I preferred the class A/B Accuphase over the Marantz PM 10 class D. An ability to drive speakers is only part of the story. I had this Marantz PM10 on home demo. I did buy a much older class D Audio Research amp though that I like very much. Class D isn’t uniformly better as otherwise everyone would own one. There are some great amps out there but as always it just depends and is down to preference and careful system matching.

 

[bullinachinashop]

Interested in your review process - I guess you'll use vinyl and other sources over extended period but initially you ran CDs only - is that deliberate to get an initial impression ?

 

[garn63]

........

 

[Rockchild]

Hi RC, I was in Bristol yesterday, and Harbeth had 3 rooms - all with Hegel H390's.
P3 ESR XD, 30.2's, and the big 40's (?). All sounded excellent of course.
Alan Shaw was there.
I can never understand though why he has a budget front end - Marantz sa6005 series i think it was, but the guys doing the demo were using some kind of Denon DAC instead.
Slightly off topic.

No, not off topic at all. I always remember AS saying amps don’t make a difference but clearly he has been re educated as there is a clear and obvious difference between classes on Harbeth.

 

[Rockchild]

I don’t believe that Jon @Rockchild has reached a conclusion yet. In my contribution I said that the class D Marantz PM10 drove the Harbeths better than the Accuphase. But this is not the full story. Jon will report back on his final findings but in my case in my own thread I said that over all I preferred the class A/B Accuphase over the Marantz PM 10 class D. An ability to drive speakers is only part of the story. I had this Marantz PM10 on home demo. I did buy a much older class D Audio Research amp though that I like very much. Class D isn’t uniformly better as otherwise everyone would own one. There are some great amps out there but as always it just depends and is down to preference and careful system matching.

I’ve done a bit more listening tonight but not in a serious way however, there is a much cleaner sound with Class D but the old amps were very clinical and lacked any depth to the sound. This clearly isn’t the case anymore (well, certainly not in the Primare).
It is a slightly different presentation but not in a bad way.
What I don’t want to be doing is playing music to impress but music that I like so tomorrow will allow me to listen in depth.

 

[Rockchild]

Interested in your review process - I guess you'll use vinyl and other sources over extended period but initially you ran CDs only - is that deliberate to get an initial impression ?

I’ll be playing vinyl tomorrow. I just didn’t want to be swapping from vinyl to CD and the phonostage is new so too many changes would be confusing.

 

[Rockchild]

Not a normal conventional way of stacking your kit but the quickest way of a-b comparisons.



Vinyl today, still a close call because both amps offer different things Grrrrr!

 

[Boycie]

Not a normal conventional way of stacking your kit but the quickest way of a-b comparisons.















Vinyl today, still a close call because both amps offer different things G

Not a normal conventional way of stacking your kit but the quickest way of a-b comparisons.







Vinyl today, still a close call because both amps offer different things Grrrrr!



rrrrr!

Not a normal conventional way of stacking your kit but the quickest way of a-b comparisons.



Vinyl today, still a close call because both amps offer different things Grrrrr!

I have come to the conclusion that they will offer different flavours, it's just whether you prefer one over the other. I've run my Primare for enough years to be happy with it. A friend runs full Class A and I like it but not enough to change.

 

[Rockchild]

Ok, a few more hours today. Vinyl, same sort of results as from CD really with the exception of being a tad cleaner in presentation. Slightly less hiss (non really but this is if the volume is right up). Micro-phonics extremely low too, very little transfer of unwanted noise through the amp (i35). I think class D is less susceptible to picking up any interference if I’m honest.
You can’t have everything as people say… true, I still think the Exposure has more emotional involvement with the music whereas the i35 is more accurate and precise but does not bare the traits of its early class D counterparts.
So here lies the quandary, both amps have their plus points and which do I prefer? I just don’t know yet.

The last piece of music I played was a church organ and a cello live. Sent tingles down my spine via the i35 with its definition and capture of the full spectrums that these two instruments can give and capturing the moment. The exposure just couldn’t quite get there.
Having heard the exposure 5010 pre/mono powers do the same track some time ago, my money would go there but at 7k….

Everything has its limits including my wallet.

 

[Three sheds]

Ok, a few more hours today. Vinyl, same sort of results as from CD really with the exception of being a tad cleaner in presentation. Slightly less hiss (non really but this is if the volume is right up). Micro-phonics extremely low too, very little transfer of unwanted noise through the amp (i35). I think class D is less susceptible to picking up any interference if I’m honest.
You can’t have everything as people say… true, I still think the Exposure has more emotional involvement with the music whereas the i35 is more accurate and precise but does not bare the traits of its early class D counterparts.
So here lies the quandary, both amps have their plus points and which do I prefer? I just don’t know yet.

The last piece of music I played was a church organ and a cello live. Sent tingles down my spine via the i35 with its definition and capture of the full spectrums that these two instruments can give and capturing the moment. The exposure just couldn’t quite get there.
Having heard the exposure 5010 pre/mono powers do the same track some time ago, my money would go there but at 7k….

Everything has its limits including my wallet.

Have you heard the 3510 pre & monos? They might give just a little extra.
Only £4.5k

 

[DomT]

Ok, a few more hours today. Vinyl, same sort of results as from CD really with the exception of being a tad cleaner in presentation. Slightly less hiss (non really but this is if the volume is right up). Micro-phonics extremely low too, very little transfer of unwanted noise through the amp (i35). I think class D is less susceptible to picking up any interference if I’m honest.
You can’t have everything as people say… true, I still think the Exposure has more emotional involvement with the music whereas the i35 is more accurate and precise but does not bare the traits of its early class D counterparts.
So here lies the quandary, both amps have their plus points and which do I prefer? I just don’t know yet.

The last piece of music I played was a church organ and a cello live. Sent tingles down my spine via the i35 with its definition and capture of the full spectrums that these two instruments can give and capturing the moment. The exposure just couldn’t quite get there.
Having heard the exposure 5010 pre/mono powers do the same track some time ago, my money would go there but at 7k….

Everything has its limits including my wallet.

As you know I have an ARC class D as well as an ARC valve pre/SS power amp. I made detailed notes about the differences. Similar findings to yours. On the Class D there was more detail and control and a more relaxed presentation. The valve/SS class A/B had more emotion and timing was better. Neither are wrong. It’s all down to preference. Tough call.

 

[Rockchild]

Have you heard the 3510 pre & monos? They might give just a little extra.
Only £4.5k

Marginal gains apparently as the Integrated is so good.

 

[HouseElf]

Ok, a few more hours today. Vinyl, same sort of results as from CD really with the exception of being a tad cleaner in presentation. Slightly less hiss (non really but this is if the volume is right up). Micro-phonics extremely low too, very little transfer of unwanted noise through the amp (i35). I think class D is less susceptible to picking up any interference if I’m honest.
You can’t have everything as people say… true, I still think the Exposure has more emotional involvement with the music whereas the i35 is more accurate and precise but does not bare the traits of its early class D counterparts.
So here lies the quandary, both amps have their plus points and which do I prefer? I just don’t know yet.

The last piece of music I played was a church organ and a cello live. Sent tingles down my spine via the i35 with its definition and capture of the full spectrums that these two instruments can give and capturing the moment. The exposure just couldn’t quite get there.
Having heard the exposure 5010 pre/mono powers do the same track some time ago, my money would go there but at 7k….

Everything has its limits including my wallet.

Sounds like the i35 is certainly getting under your skin and if can compete with the higher priced Exposure amps, well, sounds like it could be a winner.

 

[Rockchild]

As you know I have an ARC class D as well as an ARC valve pre/SS power amp. I made detailed notes about the differences. Similar findings to yours. On the Class D there was more detail and control and a more relaxed presentation. The valve/SS class A/B had more emotion and timing was better. Neither are wrong. It’s all down to preference. Tough call.

HiFi is a sonically emotional journey as you know Dom. The Primare has many advantages over the Exposure including balanced connections/DAC/Streamer upgrades etc. I believe these to be a worthy upgrade eventually whereas the Exposure and many like it are built on trusted and proven methods. neither is wrong. I need a break from the music before my ears overloads because you get to the point where you are looking and listening for something that isn't there.

 

[Jules_S]

This all sounds like great fun, Jon, but I do agree with you that when you are trying to balance enjoying the music (which is perhaps THE biggest test of the lot) with critical listening to understand the sonic traits of new kit, it becomes quite tiring, and it's easy to confuse yourself. Definitely come back to it in a day or two's time with fresh ears.

I'd say that from your post #34, the Primare is doing the "emotional" thing too. I don't know what involvement look like if it's not tingles and goosebumps! That's got to be a good sign, surely?