The Class A/B and D Conclusion UPDATE Luxman Arrival

[Psilonaught]

£3500 for a class D integrated with no bells and whistles. That feels very expensive.

 

[Three sheds]

Sounds like the i35 is certainly getting under your skin and if can compete with the higher priced Exposure amps, well, sounds like it could be a winner.

There is another lens here - with the Exposure 3510 @ £2200 and the Primare i35 @ £3450 I suspect that many with a budget that can't stretch much past £2k will consider the Exposure to be an attractive option - especially in this contest up against an amp costing a £1000 more.

 

[Jules_S]

I don't really think price is really the deciding factor here. I'm sure Jon wouldn't have chosen to evaluate the Primare if he didn't think it was affordable. For some people those price tickets are small change. For others, unattainable. See recent thread about rip-off hi fi and the value proposition.

Not sure why £3.5k would be expensive for a decent quality, well-engineered Class-D amp. Mine cost a lot more than that when it was new (not that I could have afforded it). How is that any more "expensive" than a box full of wires and glass bottles? In either case the component cost doesn't reflect the retail price sticker.

 

[Rockchild]

£3500 for a class D integrated with no bells and whistles. That feels very expensive.

There are considerably more expensive Class D amps out there. It’s probably cheaper than the amount you have
spent on valves

 

[MartinC]

£3500 for a class D integrated with no bells and whistles. That feels very expensive.

Why should the 'rules' be any different just because an amp is Class D? It's an amp like any other, and whether it's worth the price depends on how it performs and what a potential buyer thinks of it.

(My class D power amp cost more than this when new and has even fewer 'bells and whistles' than an integrated amp!)

 

[hiesteem]

Have you heard the 3510 pre & monos? They might give just a little extra.
Only £4.5k

That's where my money would go.
More. Importantly Jon have you had your CDP upgraded

 

[Rockchild]

That's where my money would go.
More. Importantly Jon have you had your CDP upgraded

There was a delay so held off a bit. Due to go in a few weeks
Sounding sweet as it is atm

 

[hiesteem]

There was a delay so held off a bit. Due to go in a few weeks
Sounding sweet as it is atm

It'll be interesting to see how these two amps will present the sound once the upgrades have been done. My guess is more separation of instruments and a quicker sonic response. It will need a couple of weeks to bed in. My Restek kept changing its presentation over a few weeks before it settled down.

 

[Boris the Animal]

There is another lens here - with the Exposure 3510 @ £2200 and the Primare i35 @ £3450 I suspect that many with a budget that can't stretch much past £2k will consider the Exposure to be an attractive option - especially in this contest up against an amp costing a £1000 more.

The I25 at £2500 concedes some power to the I35 and would be a fairer comparison to the Exposure. As it also uses Primare’s UFPD2 technology I would nevertheless expect the findings to be similar.

 

[Rockchild]

Ok, niggles are still here. As @Three sheds pointed out earlier about the 3510 mono’s, I should give them a go and use the 3510 integrated as a pre for evaluation.
So, they are on their way. If I like this combination, I would sell the 3510 integrated and rather than go for the 3510 pre, I’d jump to the 5010 pre. The 5010 pre is a considerable step up from the 3510 pre and allows me to use the balanced inputs on the 3510 Mono’s.

So, what’s the niggles? I find I have to turn up the Primare more to achieve an overall satisfaction across the range, I generally don’t listen at 75+dB and can become tiring. Don’t get me wrong, the Primare is an outstanding amp and has achieved something I didn’t expect which was a class a/b like sound which is excellent by my standards.
It’s not always however, about outright and accurate detail (remember, I’m a class A fan), it’s about emotional involvement with the music.

The Primare is far from dead and buried but I’m raising the reference point. Watch this space.

 

[hiesteem]

I just feel two monos and a quality analogue pre will take your system to another level Jon. I really am a fan of the Exposure minimalist design with decades of experience and pedigree in amplifier manufacturer. They also look great and being sleek, fit nicely on your shelf. Also feel your Harbeths will benefit more than ever from the combination.
Both the Restek and your Thorens will have a cleaner signal path. It will be like having a new system.
With no need to bother with the new active Harbeths.

 

[Lurch]

Rather than go for the 3510 pre, I’d jump to the 5010 pre. The 5010 pre is a considerable step up from the 3510 pre and allows me to use the balanced inputs on the 3510 Mono’s.



The Primare is far from dead and buried but I’m raising the reference point. Watch this space.

You could always get your BO sorted and I can bring my MFA Baby Ref for you to try with the monos, I reckon that would be an interesting experiment.

 

[Nopiano]

Have followed this with interest. There are so many excellent integrated amps in this price band, a number of which I’ve ‘flirted’ with at some stage before going with separate pre-power. The Exposure and Primare are great examples, but what about any of these:-

1. Denon A-110 anniversary series in beautiful titanium finish;
2. Rotel’s RA-1592 and newer RA-6000, much the same under the hood and capable of over 40amps - or over 1Kilowatt output into low impedances;
3. Copland csa100 and 150 hybrids;
4. Prima Luna Evo series, in integrated and pre-power options;
5. Norma, look lush though I’ve never heard them;
6. Gato 250 or 400, stunning and great value.

I‘m sure to think of some I’ve overlooked in that list.

 

[hiesteem]

Have followed this with interest. There are so many excellent integrated amps in this price band, a number of which I’ve ‘flirted’ with at some stage before going with separate pre-power. The Exposure and Primare are great examples, but what about any of these:-

Denon A-110 anniversary series in beautiful titanium finish; Rotel’s RA-1592 and newer RA-6000, much the same under the hood and capable of over 40amps - or over 1Kilowatt output into low impedances;
Copland csa100 and 150 hybrids;
Prima Luna Evo series, in integrated and pre-power options;
Norma, look lush though I’ve never heard them;
Gato 250 or 400, stunning and great value.

I‘m sure to think of some I’ve overlooked in that list.

No doubt these are all quality intergrateds. But Given Jon's system a top pre and mono, blocks will likely bring more out of his front end and speakers.
Just my opinion but when your system is as good as this, then amplification makes a difference.

 

[Nopiano]

No doubt these are all quality intergrateds. But Given Jon's system a top pre and mono, blocks will likely bring more out of his front end and speakers.
Just my opinion but when your system is as good as this, then amplification makes a difference.

Oh, I’ve no doubt about amplification making a difference. I’m less certain about the benefits of monoblocks over a stereo power amp or an excellent integrated amp, but then I’ve never owned monoblocks. My point was the options widen dramatically as the £££ increase, even sticking with integrated options as he has.

 

[hifinutt]

Have followed this with interest. There are so many excellent integrated amps in this price band, a number of which I’ve ‘flirted’ with at some stage before going with separate pre-power. The Exposure and Primare are great examples, but what about any of these:-

Denon A-110 anniversary series in beautiful titanium finish; Rotel’s RA-1592 and newer RA-6000, much the same under the hood and capable of over 40amps - or over 1Kilowatt output into low impedances;
Copland csa100 and 150 hybrids;
Prima Luna Evo series, in integrated and pre-power options;
Norma, look lush though I’ve never heard them;
Gato 250 or 400, stunning and great value.

I‘m sure to think of some I’ve overlooked in that list.

yes norma are pretty special
i see they do a power amp as well

https://www.analogueseduction.net/power-amplifiers3/NORMApa150.html

 

[Rockchild]

It’s been a difficult decision but the Primare is not for me or rather the speakers. I know Harbeth will be using Class D in their Actives but it will incorporate DSP to a degree. I found myself over time, realising that with the combination, it was too revealing and accurate. On the right or different speakers, I’m sure it would be different but without doubt, class D today is leagues ahead of where it was years ago and no doubt like electric cars, the future.
I am too attached to Class A or A/B, I’ve grown up with it, enjoyed it and would miss it.
The Sugden a21a Signature is a truly remarkable amplifier and isn’t going anywhere and eventually in the future, will form part of a scaled down system. The tone vs power of it is just about right but up the power in a class A design it can become a bit rough around the edges on the tonal side.
Anyway, as expected, Exposure will be joining everyone else on price increases from the Ist of April and probably around 15-20% so I’d like to get the pre ordered prior.

Yes, as many of you have said, there are plenty of amp designs around and I truly believe that many really do sound similar and the choice is immense. You could go on and on and on picking out amps but it comes to a point where enough is enough.

I know many brands and their signatures but this was all about Class D vs Class A/B and despite some clear advantages with Class D, sonically it hasn’t quite done it for me and my ageing ears

 

[Rockchild]

Oh, I forgot to mention. Puritan cables. I found the same findings as @George 47 and that’s all I’m going to say on it

 

[deggie]

The I25 at £2500 concedes some power to the I35 and would be a fairer comparison to the Exposure. As it also uses Primare’s UFPD2 technology I would nevertheless expect the findings to be similar.

It’s been a difficult decision but the Primare is not for me or rather the speakers. I know Harbeth will be using Class D in their Actives but it will incorporate DSP to a degree. I found myself over time, realising that with the combination, it was too revealing and accurate. On the right or different speakers, I’m sure it would be different but without doubt, class D today is leagues ahead of where it was years ago and no doubt like electric cars, the future.
I am too attached to Class A or A/B, I’ve grown up with it, enjoyed it and would miss it.
The Sugden a21a Signature is a truly remarkable amplifier and isn’t going anywhere and eventually in the future, will form part of a scaled down system. The tone vs power of it is just about right but up the power in a class A design it can become a bit rough around the edges on the tonal side.
Anyway, as expected, Exposure will be joining everyone else on price increases from the Ist of April and probably around 15-20% so I’d like to get the pre ordered prior.

Yes, as many of you have said, there are plenty of amp designs around and I truly believe that many really do sound similar and the choice is immense. You could go on and on and on picking out amps but it comes to a point where enough is enough.

I know many brands and their signatures but this was all about Class D vs Class A/B and despite some clear advantages with Class D, sonically it hasn’t quite done it for me and my ageing ears

Lovely write up jon , interesting battle of amps thats been intriguing reading to a lot of wammers ,.... harbeths love class a/b to extract their emotion and beguiling traits that you and myself desire and love ......pity you are not closer as you could have borrowed my class a/b amp to compare your audio memories ..............that norma for sale in the classifieds would be a contender i think ,.......take care,

 

[Bigwig07]

It’s been a difficult decision but the Primare is not for me or rather the speakers. I know Harbeth will be using Class D in their Actives but it will incorporate DSP to a degree. I found myself over time, realising that with the combination, it was too revealing and accurate. On the right or different speakers, I’m sure it would be different but without doubt, class D today is leagues ahead of where it was years ago and no doubt like electric cars, the future.
I am too attached to Class A or A/B, I’ve grown up with it, enjoyed it and would miss it.
The Sugden a21a Signature is a truly remarkable amplifier and isn’t going anywhere and eventually in the future, will form part of a scaled down system. The tone vs power of it is just about right but up the power in a class A design it can become a bit rough around the edges on the tonal side.
Anyway, as expected, Exposure will be joining everyone else on price increases from the Ist of April and probably around 15-20% so I’d like to get the pre ordered prior.

Yes, as many of you have said, there are plenty of amp designs around and I truly believe that many really do sound similar and the choice is immense. You could go on and on and on picking out amps but it comes to a point where enough is enough.

I know many brands and their signatures but this was all about Class D vs Class A/B and despite some clear advantages with Class D, sonically it hasn’t quite done it for me and my ageing ears

Hi RC - glad you're making some progress towards your end game set up(s)

Did you do a Sugden A21a v Exposure 3510 posting, or did I miss that ?