Upgrading the old player

[dikki]

I recently upgraded my LP12 ('93 built). It went from 

Trampolin / Cirkus / Ekos I / Adikt / Lingo I

to

Trampolin / Karousel / Ekos I / new Adikt / Kore / Lingo IV

It sounds awesome. I noticed a lot wider soundstage, and way more firm basis in the sound. It feels more solid. So that's good, right? 

However, I'm not so happy with the stylus. It picks up a lot more dust and skips more easily. Any idea how to remedy this? Any ideas would be appreciated. 

(Should this go to troubleshooting?)

 

[ACS]

However, I'm not so happy with the stylus. It picks up a lot more dust and skips more easily. Any idea how to remedy this? Any ideas would be appreciated. 

Buy a record cleaner and clean your records. The dust problem will disappear.

 

[dikki]

Buy a record cleaner and clean your records. The dust problem will disappear.

I own a clear audio smart matrix, and use it regularly. Also, the record looks quite clean. 

 

[Moomintroll]

Depending on how worn your old stylus was, it’s probable that there is crap in the groove that it didn’t touch, but the new, unworn, profile does. Just keep your new stylus clean and see if the problem goes away.

’troll

 

[dikki]

Depending on how worn your old stylus was, it’s probable that there is crap in the groove that it didn’t touch, but the new, unworn, profile does. Just keep your new stylus clean and see if the problem goes away.

’troll

That is interesting. I didn't think of that. 

 

[ThomasOK]

It would also be worthwhile to check that the arm height and tracking force are set properly.

 

[dikki]

It would also be worthwhile to check that the arm height and tracking force are set properly.

Thanks! I did check the arm height, from what I can see it looks good. The tracking force is a bit lower than I am actually expecting. Shouldn't it be around 1.75? It looks more like 1.6 from what I can tell. I tink I should ask my dealer that set it up. Maybe this setting was the result of specific measurements. 

 

[sktn77a]

When you say "skips" what exactly do you mean?  It should never skip unless the floor is bouncing.  Maybe the Ekos 1 bearings are going out or some damage was incurred when it was upgraded?

 

[Dasher]

Do you have an anti-static gun? The work done has required a complete strip down and it is possible that you TT is now carrying more charge than previously. The 'skipping' is unlikely to be down to dragging excessive crap from the groove of cleaned records. Is the 'crap' more like whisps of fine fibre  or is it crud? If the former then I favour  static as the issue, if the latter then it could be coming from the groove - but I suspect VTA (arm height on an Ekos), tracking force or a combination of  both rather than the fact that the stylus is getting deeper than the old one - more likely the rake from the angle. Try checking your arm height using one of your thinnest records - and then look again with a thick (e.g 180g one) - which one of them looks 'right'? I tend to set up on 180g as I find a 'Headshell-down' scenario preferable to a counterweight-down scenario. 

What happens if you play the same side repeatedly? Do you get less and less dirt accumulating or not? 

 

[Dasher]

When you say "skips" what exactly do you mean?  It should never skip unless the floor is bouncing.  Maybe the Ekos 1 bearings are going out or some damage was incurred when it was upgraded?

Scary thought - but a possibility.

 

[Andyt916]

Notwithstanding that the thread title brings to mind Swiss Toni, I'm very pleased to hear the results of your upgrade as it is pretty close to my post lockdown upgrade plan (Trampolin, Karousel, Kore).

 

[ThomasOK]

Thanks! I did check the arm height, from what I can see it looks good. The tracking force is a bit lower than I am actually expecting. Shouldn't it be around 1.75? It looks more like 1.6 from what I can tell. I tink I should ask my dealer that set it up. Maybe this setting was the result of specific measurements. 

Linn specs the Adikt at 1.75 grams.  I have found that 1.70 is where it is generally the most musical.  1.6 would definitely be low in my experience.  Do you have a tracking force gauge?  Getting the best musical quality out of an Ekos tracking force setting can be a bit tricky.  I would recommend trying 1.65, 1.7 and 1.75 and seeing what sounds the most musical just using the dial.  You can take it further and try 1.72 etc., especially if 1.7 and 1.75 both sound good but in different ways.  Again, I usually end up at 1.7, although sometimes a touch higher.  Once you have done this measure the tracking force with an accurate digital gauge.  On an Ekos you will find that it reads higher - probably somewhere in the 1.8 range.  To correct this don't change the dial, instead move the counterweight until the gauge reads the same as the dial.  This will give you the most musical sound.  I don't know why it works, but a friend in Europe discovered this and I have verified it with numerous LP12s, as have others.  There is a thread about it on the Lejonklou forum that goes into more detail.  Then check the anti-skating.  On an Ekos 1, 2 and early Ekos SE you need to set it about .3 grams higher than the tracking force for most musical perfromance.  This is well known and Linn changed the anti-skating on the Ekos SE part way through production to overcome the problem.  Again the best way to set this is by ear.  When you get it right everything falls into focus.

Hopefully some of this will help.  Otherwise I would head back to your dealer and have them look at the stylus under a high-power microscope.  It is uncommon but once in a while a diamond that hasn't been mounted correctly slips through quality control.  This will definitely cause problems and can damage your records if it is bad enough.  Better safe than sorry.

 

[Andyt916]

Linn specs the Adikt at 1.75 grams.  I have found that 1.70 is where it is generally the most musical.  1.6 would definitely be low in my experience.  Do you have a tracking force gauge?  Getting the best musical quality out of an Ekos tracking force setting can be a bit tricky.  I would recommend trying 1.65, 1.7 and 1.75 and seeing what sounds the most musical just using the dial.  You can take it further and try 1.72 etc., especially if 1.7 and 1.75 both sound good but in different ways.  Again, I usually end up at 1.7, although sometimes a touch higher.  Once you have done this measure the tracking force with an accurate digital gauge.  On an Ekos you will find that it reads higher - probably somewhere in the 1.8 range.  To correct this don't change the dial, instead move the counterweight until the gauge reads the same as the dial.  This will give you the most musical sound.  I don't know why it works, but a friend in Europe discovered this and I have verified it with numerous LP12s, as have others.  There is a thread about it on the Lejonklou forum that goes into more detail.  Then check the anti-skating.  On an Ekos 1, 2 and early Ekos SE you need to set it about .3 grams higher than the tracking force for most musical perfromance.  This is well known and Linn changed the anti-skating on the Ekos SE part way through production to overcome the problem.  Again the best way to set this is by ear.  When you get it right everything falls into focus.

Hopefully some of this will help.  Otherwise I would head back to your dealer and have them look at the stylus under a high-power microscope.  It is uncommon but once in a while a diamond that hasn't been mounted correctly slips through quality control.  This will definitely cause problems and can damage your records if it is bad enough.  Better safe than sorry.

Thanks for this, @ThomasOK, interesting info. As the owner of a fairly new Adikt (albeit mounted on an Ittok LVII) that I have recently balanced on a digital scale, I thought I'd give this a try. I dialled it down to 1.7 and had a listen to a couple of albums. I listened to a MoFi pressing of The Cars, The Cars and an original thin pressing of Aztec Camera - Knife. Sounded good. For the final fourth side (second side of Knife) I dialled it back to ~1.75 (I say ~ as the Ittok LVII gauge only goes on .5 increments) and, whilst I wouldn't speculate on the ultimate sound quality, I found it more engaging and more involving.

I'm not suggesting that this is right for everyone, but, thanks to you, I think I've found what's right for me

 

[dikki]

Linn specs the Adikt at 1.75 grams.  I have found that 1.70 is where it is generally the most musical.  1.6 would definitely be low in my experience.  Do you have a tracking force gauge?  Getting the best musical quality out of an Ekos tracking force setting can be a bit tricky.  I would recommend trying 1.65, 1.7 and 1.75 and seeing what sounds the most musical just using the dial.  You can take it further and try 1.72 etc., especially if 1.7 and 1.75 both sound good but in different ways.  Again, I usually end up at 1.7, although sometimes a touch higher.  Once you have done this measure the tracking force with an accurate digital gauge.  On an Ekos you will find that it reads higher - probably somewhere in the 1.8 range.  To correct this don't change the dial, instead move the counterweight until the gauge reads the same as the dial.  This will give you the most musical sound.  I don't know why it works, but a friend in Europe discovered this and I have verified it with numerous LP12s, as have others.  There is a thread about it on the Lejonklou forum that goes into more detail.  Then check the anti-skating.  On an Ekos 1, 2 and early Ekos SE you need to set it about .3 grams higher than the tracking force for most musical perfromance.  This is well known and Linn changed the anti-skating on the Ekos SE part way through production to overcome the problem.  Again the best way to set this is by ear.  When you get it right everything falls into focus.

Hopefully some of this will help.  Otherwise I would head back to your dealer and have them look at the stylus under a high-power microscope.  It is uncommon but once in a while a diamond that hasn't been mounted correctly slips through quality control.  This will definitely cause problems and can damage your records if it is bad enough.  Better safe than sorry.

For this I have only my ear, as I don't have a gauge. I'm still getting used to the new sound, so it might take a while. Thanks, this is very useful!

 

[Dasher]

Hi Dikki

I find these quite useful. They can be a bit hit or miss  as to whether they work or not. I find though, that if they do work (they usually do) then they are accurate. If they break they tend to break completely, rather than read the wrong value. Cheap enough and certainly help if setting the VTF by using the counter- weight. I set mine in the same way as Thomas (Ekos 2 here) and agree  - it works!

 

[Dasher]

Hi Dikki

I find these quite useful. They can be a bit hit or miss  as to whether they work or not. I find though, that if they do work (they usually do) then they are accurate. If they break they tend to break completely, rather than read the wrong value. Cheap enough and certainly help if setting the VTF by using the counter- weight. I set mine in the same way as Thomas (Ekos 2 here) and agree  - it works!

oops!  Link helps!  https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/0-01g-Digital-Cartridge-Stylus-Tracking-Force-Scale-Gauge-Turntable-Stylus-Tool/254900730152?hash=item3b59447928:g:f~4AAOSwf-5gTCAC

 

[TooManyCatweazles]

For this I have only my ear, as I don't have a gauge. I'm still getting used to the new sound, so it might take a while. Thanks, this is very useful!

Your ears are certainly more useful, than a gauge, to enjoy the music and what you hear is more important, than what you measure. 

Nevertheless, when you try to optimise VTF by shifting the counterweight, a gauge is a very helpful device to see what you're doing, and to create reproducible results. Even the very cheap China made thingies on Amazon are good enough to achieve this. Mine is pretty accurate, as compared to an older Panasonic gauge (still with an analog indicator), and a very old purely mechanical device.

You aren't targeting ultimate calibration accuracy anyway. It's good enough, if you can reproduce your own results within a slight margin of error.

Happy measuring may cause happier listening

 

[Nopiano]

oops!  Link helps!  https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/0-01g-Digital-Cartridge-Stylus-Tracking-Force-Scale-Gauge-Turntable-Stylus-Tool/254900730152?hash=item3b59447928:g:f~4AAOSwf-5gTCAC

I’d second that design as a dependable and cheap one.  Years ago, on the original Linn forum these were recommended.  I bought mine direct from somewhere in China or HongKong but it never arrived.  They resent one after some correspondence for another couple of dollars for ‘insurance’ and this time it arrived.  Another time, I’d buy from UK or EU where it is actually in stock!  The scales work very well.  Frankly, you can’t own any record player without owning stylus scales!

You’ll see almost identical designs badged with leading manufacturers names for £60, £80!  Whether they have added QC I cannot say.  Here is an example.

https://www.analogueseduction.net/stylus-force-tracking-gauges/project-measure-it-s2-digital-stylus-force-gauge.html
 

 

[dikki]

Nevertheless, when you try to optimise VTF by shifting the counterweight, a gauge is a very helpful device to see what you're doing, and to create reproducible results.

Indeed, that is the thing. From what I can see I guess it is at 1.6, maybe 1.65. But from what I read here, I need more precision. And yes, after that it's down to listening. 

The dust under the stylus is definitely dust, not crud. So a anti static gun might help. However, I never needed one before. 

When it skips, it skips over very minute spicks (is that English?!?) on the record surface. However, it never skipped on those before. I get the sense it is way more sensitive there now. I can imagine that has to do with the weight difference, as I used to have a much heavier setting. 

I am happy with the many suggestions here, and I will try to find a gauge. Thanks!