Need some help getting into classical

Don Ruperto

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I'm certain you're far more deeply involved than I am , but to some extent I think it's possible you're proving my point.  

Maybe you've lost sight of that person who is first dipping their toes n the waters of classical music?  Compassion towards a beginner?

Otherwise I agree with you.  Life itself is a journey... disappointments, pitfalls and all.

"by people who make a mortuary seem like a busy train station".  That's excellent.  

I'm an old fart now, I love music to bits, it's a major part of my life.  

Ultimately I would say just one thing to everybody:   "Explore, explore....".

 
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Klassik

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Maybe you've lost sight of that person who is first dipping their toes n the waters of classical music?  Compassion towards a beginner?
Le Baron makes some excellent points.  I'm not really sure what you find in his statement to not be compassionate towards beginners.  If anything, I think he offers great advice for beginners...and those who think they are seasoned listeners.

He is a standard go-to name, whilst there are/were dozens of equally good conductors.
Yes, there were many big name conductors who were promoted by the major labels who made hundreds of albums.  Karajan, Bernstein, Ormandy, Solti, Szell, Maazel, and so on.  What really makes Karajan better, for new classical music listeners or otherwise, than any of those other names? 

I've never heard of 'infra dig' before. It's not the reason I'm not a Karajan fan, it's because he's vastly overrated and reached the point where he was standing motionless on the conductor's podium, eyes closed (probably asleep) giving a twitch of a finger now and again. And all his fans filled in the yawning gap with fawning commentary about how he had by then reached conducting nirvana and could almost telepathically control the orchestra (after having 'broke' them in rehearsal). It's pretty ludicrous.
Yes, there is a lot of daft romanticizing about the major conductors of the 20th century.  There are stories about all of those conductors concerning how demanding they were.  Well, if they were all so demanding, what's so special about any one of them in particular?  Perhaps being demanding and direct is just part of the job whether one is recording for DG or if one is conducting some little-known orchestra in the middle of the country somewhere. 

Back when the major labels were selling a lot of classical records, they would pay to send their artists to do appearances on TV and radio.  They would spend a lot of money to advertise their records in relevant publications and allegedly they even wined and dined the so-called critics who reviewed recordings.  Record labels like Naxos, cpo, Brilliant Classics, and so forth don't do stuff like that.  They don't have the budget for it.  Frankly, the major labels don't have the budget to do that stuff very often these days either.  But, yeah, that marketing is a big reason why there are so many big names from that era.  A Naxos conductor may not have all that paid buzz, but does it really matter?  Are we here to enjoy music or to enjoy marketing campaigns?

As for Karajan specifically, he was known for being a proponent of multi-miking during recording and wanting to have a lot of input on the audio engineering even though there were far more qualified people who could have done the engineering.  Some of Karajan's early recordings, like the EMI stuff, don't sound too bad aside from issues related to the age of the recordings, but his recordings from the 1970s and 1980s have pretty London (and I don't mean Decca ;) ) sound quality, IMO.  I say IMO, but I know a lot of people who agree with me on that. 

What we're talking about here is somebody finding their way into classical music.  It's no good suggesting they start with highly esoteric harpsichord sonatas.... at least guide people towards the known legendary recordings to begin with.  In my opinion that's the best way in.
If I asked 50 Bach fans to name their favorite 'legendary' performance of, say, the WTC, I might well get 25 different responses!  There are several of those Penguin type guides and I'm sure many of them recommend different recordings.  Everyone has to start somewhere, yes, but getting too many outside opinions may well lead to more confusion.

Ultimately I would say just one thing to everybody:   "Explore, explore....".
The problem of starting the story at Beethoven or graduating from Mozart to 'more serious' Beethoven has long been a problem in classical music. It's a position widely held on another large classical music forum populated by people who make a mortuary seem like a busy train station. In general I would say to anyone coming to classical music: listen to absolutely anything that takes your fancy. If it's Vivaldi, good. If it's Schoenberg, good. If it happens to be Karl Ditters von Dittersdorf, good. I'd never do what the folks at that place do, shoving everyone into Beethoven's or Schubert and romantic orchestral Leviathans as a definition of what it means to be properly 'into classical music'.
Klassik on exploring music - There are many classical music fans who moronically believe that there are only a handful of composers and performers worth listening to and that listening to anything outside of those short lists is merely a 'guilty pleasure.'  That's complete nonsense. 

The good news is that I sense that a lot of younger classical music fans are moving beyond the record label marketing hype of the ~1960s.  It seems to me that younger classical music fans, and savvy older classical music fans xD , are exploring classical music at places like YouTube.  They might start listening to one thing, but then they click on a recommendation.  That leads to more recommendations.  This goes on and on, but I notice that YouTube is not shy about recommending some rather obscure classical music works.  There are some excellent YouTubbers who have uploaded a lot of excellent, diverse material and some people are wise enough to follow those uploaders. 

When one follows this trend, they explore a lot of music and they don't have to worry about how famous the performers are because they are just listening to the music and determining what they like about it and what they don't like.  Maybe they'll even learn something from the path they've traveled and become more skilled in guiding their own adventure.

 

Le Baron

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There is one addition worth making...well perhaps it's of less interest to others. I used to dislike Bruckner (and Wagner) intensely, I mean for years. Then 20 years later I have three of his symphonies on constant rotation! Other people I knew praised Bruckner to the skies, whereas me, being into French fin-de-siècle and early modernist stuff, thought it was just giant, exhausting twaddle.

This is why I would find it difficult to offer advice to people about what they should listen to. Klassik's suggestion about using YouTube as a tool for listening is good. I listen via youtube (despite having CDs/vinyl) and it throws up some real gems. Makes the process of discovery very painless.

 

Don Ruperto

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When I first posted that a newbie listener needs to avoid the cheapo labels, I made a good basic point.  I could have created a list of recommended labels but it would have been quite a long list and I'm really not sure it would have served much of a function for Phobic.  

I can only give you an anecdotal experience which hopefully clarifies what I really meant by that remark.  I still go to people's homes to buy books and music.  Last year I received a phone call from a lady who swore blind her deceased uncle had been a great classical music enthusiast.  Despite a very polite "interrogation" on the phone, I made the mistake of travelling to this lady's house to view a collection that transpired to be mostly Reader's Digest CDs which the poor old uncle had been wasting his money on in the last years of his life.  That was by no means a unique experience for me.  

I found myself in similar situation to Phobic some 25 years back when I brought home a large collection of classical music which I instinctively wanted to explore rather than sell.  That collection included some wonderful finds which I treasure to this day, but I also remember the many bit part magazine CDs, the "relaxing" compilations etc etc.  I was just starting to explore classical music aged about 40, so I felt I connected to Phobic's post. 

My real passion is vintage music, ethnic and world music, black music etc.  I do exactly the same thing, trying to persuade folks they should listen to this that or the other because it's music I really love and have the most knowledge.  Sometimes people are delighted, more often they're really not!  Please take my word for it, I doubt very much that somebody new to classical music would enjoy listening to harpsichord recordings or Arnold Schoenberg - it might even put them off for life.   

 
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Don Ruperto

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There is one addition worth making...well perhaps it's of less interest to others. I used to dislike Bruckner (and Wagner) intensely, I mean for years. Then 20 years later I have three of his symphonies on constant rotation! Other people I knew praised Bruckner to the skies, whereas me, being into French fin-de-siècle and early modernist stuff, thought it was just giant, exhausting twaddle.

This is why I would find it difficult to offer advice to people about what they should listen to. Klassik's suggestion about using YouTube as a tool for listening is good. I listen via youtube (despite having CDs/vinyl) and it throws up some real gems. Makes the process of discovery very painless.
Total agreement.  You've taken a journey.  

Now is a great time for people to explore music - it's never been easier.  But it can be pretty painful buying CDs of music one doesn't like... or are poorly recorded etc. 

 
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Le Baron

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I very much agree with what you set out above. There's nothing worse than the Reader's Digest type regurgitations. The notion of this music as merely 'relaxation music' has made my blood boil for years. Once when I brought my ex-girlfriend here to eat, she asked me to put on some music and suggested 'classical'. So I put on the furioso from Alberto Ginastera's 2nd quartet, which I'd been listening to that week. But she made me turn it off and said it was upsetting her. Clearly I was meant to put on Mozart (whom I also like very much).

 
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Klassik

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I can only give you an anecdotal experience which hopefully clarifies what I really meant by that remark.  I still go to people's homes to buy books and music.  Last year I received a phone call from a lady who swore blind her deceased uncle had been a great classical music enthusiast.  Despite a very polite "interrogation" on the phone, I made the mistake of travelling to this lady's house to view a collection that transpired to be mostly Reader's Digest CDs which the poor old uncle had been wasting his money on in the last years of his life.  That was by no means a unique experience for me. 
If those Reader's Digest CDs made the uncle happy, then good for him that he found something which made him happy.  If the uncle claimed to be a classical music enthusiast, or certainly if he claimed to be an expert, because of those Reader's Digest CDs, well, that uncle might have been a member on some classical music sites I've unfortunately visited before.  :dunno:

There are a lot of classical music compilation CDs sold under daft names: Classical music for bath time, Classical music for drinking coffee, Classical music for ironing (yes, albums of that really do exist :eek: ), etc.  If people really do enjoy ironing to those CDs, well, good for them I suppose.  xD   Compilation CDs in general can be a good way to get introduced to a new type of music/artist, but certainly I'd hope people would explore further if they like what they hear. 

As for cheap recordings, many people have enjoyed classical music from them.  Take a look at this YouTube video of Vivaldi's Four Seasons which comes from a LaserLight CD.  It has almost 220 million views and 1 million likes to only 53,000 dislikes.  I could argue that it's an overly Romantic performance of the music, but I could say the same about a lot of Baroque recordings from big names on big labels.  All in all, it's an entirely credible performance of the music especially for a beginner. 




Bruckner is one of those examples where the recordings can differ quite drastically because of the different versions of his symphonies.  Plus, with Late Romantic music, there are a lot of different ideas on how it should be performed in terms of tempi and such.  Someone wanting to buy Bruckner recordings really should sample different versions/recordings before spending their money to see what they like the best.  Fortunately, things like YouTube make this very easy so there really aren't any excuses for someone to be uninformed.

 

Klassik

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I listened to 'Winter' on that video, because whatever the performance it's still excellent. In truth the bigger the string section, the more I like it.
Winter is my favorite as well.  That LaserLight Budapest Strings recording is a little too leisurely in the outer movements for my liking.  It's entirely listenable, and I listened to the entire performance of Winter on it, but I like my Vivaldi with a little verve to it.   xD

As an alternative, there is always this performance of Winter.  It has over a million views if you can believe it.  :eek:   It looks like he's making a p0rno if you ask me.  xD


 
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Le Baron

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It lends itself well to accordion. I saw a trio do this in front of Cologne cathedral over a decade ago. There was a bit of fad of accordionists doing the 4 Seasons around European cities.

Our fellow Milan above doesn't look like he's pulling the bellows all that much. Could he be miming to his own performance for the video?

 

Klassik

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Our fellow Milan above doesn't look like he's pulling the bellows all that much. Could he be miming to his own performance for the video?
Surely you can't expect Milan to make such a high quality video while actually performing the music, ja?  xD

 

Nopiano

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These are fascinating discussions and remind me of my classical CD buying days, which were often good choices, but inevitably with a few duds.  I did read Garmophone, Hifi News and listen to Radio 3 reviews as much as I could.  Or ask a music-loving relative.  Secondhand CD shops, which have mostly vanished were my favourite, especially one within a stone’s throw of Gloucester Cathedral. 

There are so many approaches to performance and conducting, just as there are with Hifi gear, and we are fortunate to have access to such a bounty of options these days.  

 
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Phobic

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I'm finding Qobuz invaluable here.

my main problem is not having enough time in the day to go through the list of albums I want to listen to

 
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Klassik

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There are so many approaches to performance and conducting, just as there are with Hifi gear, and we are fortunate to have access to such a bounty of options these days.  
Yes, we are in very fortunate times, IMO.  One does not have to rely on fallible reviews, recommendations, and reputations these days with all the music available on streaming sites.  Even free YouTube is more than good enough for exploring music and so many record labels put up full albums on YouTube to listen to for free.  These luxuries were unimaginable a few years ago.  It's now possible to just listen and make an opinion off of that instead of relying on the opinions of others. 

That said, there are some good reviewers out there as well.  The good reviewers describe recordings/performances rather than simply giving their opinions.  If done correctly, and that's not easy, more objective 'reviews' of music can be quite informative.  The Musicweb International site has some good reviewers (I'm not saying they are all good, but they do have some good ones) and I believe it's also free.

As for secondhand CD shops, we still have some places to buy used CDs here.  There is a chain of new/used media stores here which I quite like.  I've found many interesting CDs there over the years including some really obscure ones.  We also have a classical music CD store in town.  They mostly sell new CDs, but they do have some used CDs.  Having any kind of classical music CD shop in town here in the 2020s is rare.  It's funny that we have a CD shop, but we don't even have a classical music radio station (at least via traditional analog radio) anymore in Houston.  :|

 
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Le Baron

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One of the main problems (if I can call it a problem) with 'classical' music is that lumped together as a genre, including what is now called 'early music', it has a history of about 600-700 years. On many classical music sites/forums you have people who largely listen to subgenres. There are those who primarily listen to opera and of a particular period, or in the case of Wagner only one composer. There are those listening to sacred music. People only listening to the classical period. Those who have little knowledge of anything pre-1920 and listen mainly to modernist/postmodern music. An example of the latter at the religious cult/classical music forum 'Talk Classical' describes himself as a 'classical music fan' but listens primarily to mid-20th century music.

The upshot of this is you get very varied advice depending on the adviser. Very often a newbie would arrive there asking for 'recommendations' and the thread would descend into a reheated debate between people who like modern works (as well as older music) and those who think 'classical' means 'not Schoenberg and his ilk'. The newbie would then often be utterly bewildered and disappear before ever achieving double-digit posts. -_-

It also means IMO that much of the work, unless you decide to just limit your investigations because of lack of time, will be the usual trajectory of a lot of listening/reading over time; and with 700 years to peruse it can be daunting unless you take it in pieces. Developing your tastes as you move forward; often outgrowing things you once thought were the pinnacle of the genre. It's the same old story for most hobbies/enthusiasms. Anyone who has been given the wrong directions in a strange town knows that advice on shortcuts is hit-and-miss.

 
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Klassik

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An example of the latter at the religious cult/classical music forum 'Talk Classical' describes himself as a 'classical music fan' but listens primarily to mid-20th century music.
TalkClassical is a repository for imbecility.  I've been a visitor or poster at many Internet forums over the years include some discussing things such as cars and sports.  I don't know if I've come across any forum which displays such obtuseness as TalkClassical.  If you want to come across people who have listened to a few hours of ClassicFM (or a US equivalent) and then want to pretend that they're experts in classical music, that would be the place to visit.  :zip:   I kid you not when I say that people there who have barely listened to classical music think that they can rank composers into hundreds of tiers.  :eek:   The level of music knowledge and understanding is far greater on the Wigwam than it is at that hellhole!  ;)

But, yes, even outside of London forums, there are a number of classical music 'fans' who want to say that music that they don't like is bad music.  That's complete London.  I think any open-minded listener of music, classical or otherwise, will acknowledge that there is music which they might not have liked at one time, but they eventually like it or at least find something in it which is interesting.  A demonstrated ability to learn and evolve is something lacking in some so-called classical music enthusiasts.  :S

For example, I can think of a number of people who think the only Baroque music worth listening to is Bach's music who want to talk about the superiority of Bach and German late Baroque music over Italian, French, and other styles of of Baroque music.  However, it's hardly a secret that Bach was heavily inspired by Italian and French music and one of the key aspects of German Baroque music is that it includes styles made popular by Italian and French composers.  This is so obvious that even Bach wouldn't have needed to say it, but yet we see silly claims made by people who have not even listened to a variety of Baroque music much less read about it.

All of this is to say that a new listener should be open to listening to a variety of music without having silly preconceptions about superiority of certain things.  Just listen and you'll find that you like some things and dislike others.  Even if you just spend a little time studying the music you do like hearing, you'll easily find connections between that music and music which came before it and music which came after it which evolved from similar approaches. 

It's amazing how much musicologists are learning about music from the 18th century and before.  New music from those times are still being found as private libraries/collections open up.  Sometimes things are in public collections, but those collections are so poorly sorted that scholars really don't know what gems might exist in them.  Also, there are composers who might have written thousands of great works, but we may only know of a few of them since their music has been unfortunately destroyed before scholars could study it.  For example, we know about Albinoni's great (IMO) works from his younger days as a composer, but his collection of late works from his last 20-30 years of his life were destroyed at the Dresden State Library during WWII before it had a chance to be studied and brought to the public's attention.

So, yes, the way to approach classical music is with an open mind and open ears.  Be willing to go onto YouTube and just explore things.  YouTube's recommendation system is actually very good.  Even as a listener with some knowledge, I can't tell you how often something is recommended to me by YouTube that I had no clue about and I like it after hearing it!  Also, some labels like Naxos, and I believe also Chandos, make their liner notes available for anyone to read for free at their websites.  The ease at which we can explore music these days is really amazing.  Take advantage of that.  There's really no reason here in modern times to act like the ignoramuses who make up the membership at places like TalkClassical.  ;)

 

EddieRUKidding

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Just avoid opera is all I say and particularly Renée Fleming  ;)

It just hurts my ears  :D

I would rather listen to Organ2/ASLSP


 
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Klassik

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When you say 'London Forums', do you mean the forums of London or something else?
Something else.  Something which would show up on a chart from Bristol.  ;)

Just avoid opera is all I say and particularly Renée Fleming  ;)

It just hurts my ears  :D

I would rather listen to Organ2/ASLSP
Are you suggesting that an eterinity of Cage is better than 5 minutes of Renée Fleming?

Well, I wouldn't disagree if you are saying that.  xD

 
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