New R2R DAC

[garn63]

Right now, my metric of how much I like a DAC is how much I listen and to what.

 

[MartinC]

No volume control is a good thing according to some people,I wish mine did not. Running the sound through a volume control will affect it.

Every system needs volume control somewhere. There are pros and cons of digital vs analogue volume control rather than a universal 'best'. A digital domain volume control option that isn't used will have precisely zero affect though.

 

[pmcuk]

Every system needs volume control somewhere. There are pros and cons of digital vs analogue volume control rather than a universal 'best'. A digital domain volume control option that isn't used will have precisely zero affect though.

Yes - that's the theory I work on in my system. It's much more convenient to use volume control in software, so to achieve very little attenuation you design the whole amplification chain to give the maximum volume you use with typical sources when there's zero attenuation. This means you typically back off to 80-90% in practice. Below that it's probably background listening so less relevant.

I'm willing to bet that most systems on the WAM have far too much amplification, typically using both a preamp and an amp. So there's quite a bit of attenuation happening. My goal is to avoid this using the minimum possible stages in the amplification chain, given also that each added stage is likely to thicken the sound to some extent, not something I would want myself.

 

[StingRay]

Every system needs volume control somewhere. There are pros and cons of digital vs analogue volume control rather than a universal 'best'. A digital domain volume control option that isn't used will have precisely zero affect though.

Yes but I don't need it on a DAC, I use volume control on the amp. If you reduce volume on a DAC are you not losing Bits? I read bypassing volume control is better than having on it set to 100%, some DACs have that, I think. Volume control seems mostly for headphones.

 

[naka]

I have the Pontus II, but I am curious about the Lab12 and Audionote dacs, up to 2500 euros.

 

[MartinC]

Yes but I don't need it on a DAC, I use volume control on the amp. If you reduce volume on a DAC are you not losing Bits? I read bypassing volume control is better than having on it set to 100%, some DACs have that, I think. Volume control seems mostly for headphones.

An alternative is a DAC with volume control directly connected to a power amp. It's not just headphone applications where this is relevant.

 

[StingRay]

An alternative is a DAC with volume control directly connected to a power amp. It's not just headphone applications where this is relevant.

I said mostly. I notice some without a headphone socket, don't have a volume control, such as Jolida. And the one pmcuk has.

Could be a bit dangerous, having it on the DAC and a powerful power amp. You would have to turn the volume down a long way, some say the adjustment is not subtle enough.

 

[MartinC]

I said mostly. I notice some without a headphone socket, don't have a volume control, such as Jolida. And the one pmcuk has.

Neither of my DACs have headphone outputs but do have volume adjustment in the digital domain. Digital volume control is much more common as an option now than it used to be.

(My own setup is more unusual given my use if DSP anyway which make digital volume control more logical, but I actually have no real choice as I'd need a 3 channel preamp otherwise.)

 

[StingRay]

Neither of my DACs have headphone outputs but do have volume adjustment in the digital domain. Digital volume control is much more common as an option now than it used to be.

(My own setup is more unusual given my use if DSP anyway which make digital volume control more logical, but I actually have no real choice as I'd need a 3 channel preamp otherwise.)

There was a youtube video recently, saying how poor some the chinese preamps are on DACs.

 

[pmcuk]

Still trying to figure out what I'm hearing in R2R versus DS DACs (Soekris versus AK4490)

I found this review of the R2R Denafrips Ares 2 interesting. Following the points he makes I get the following in my own listening to the above DACs. Very broad generalisations here:

Soundstage
R2R Wider and deeper, better placement of instruments
DS Less subtle

Close or Distant
R2R More distant
DS Closer, more in your face

Dynamics
R2R Softer
SD More attack to notes

Tonality
R2R Smooth and subtle but maybe not correct for dynamics, flatter sound
SD Good but more on the brighter end, more dynamic

 

[MartinC]

There was a youtube video recently, saying how poor some the chinese preamps are on DACs.

Do you mean output stages rather than pre-amps? Digital domain volume control has nothing to do with a pre-amp. A link to the video may help for context.

 

[StingRay]

Still trying to figure out what I'm hearing in R2R versus DS DACs (Soekris versus AK4490)

I found this review of the R2R Denafrips Ares 2 interesting. Following the points he makes I get the following in my own listening to the above DACs. Very broad generalisations here:

Soundstage
R2R Wider and deeper, better placement of instruments
DS Less subtle

Close or Distant
R2R More distant
DS Closer, more in your face

Dynamics
R2R Softer
SD More attack to notes

Tonality
R2R Smooth and subtle but maybe not correct for dynamics, flatter sound
SD Good but more on the brighter end, more dynamic

Here is another review:

Here is another saying similar things:

 

[Patu]

If you want great measured performance combined with the sonic qualities of R2R dacs, look no further than Holo Audio.

 

[StingRay]

Do you mean output stages rather than pre-amps? Digital domain volume control has nothing to do with a pre-amp. A link to the video may help for context.

I think this is this is the one:

Has been posted on here before.

Terminology maybe wrong but are you not using a DAC as a preamp, if you connect it direct to a power amp?

 

[Psilonaught]

If you want great measured performance combined with the sonic qualities of R2R dacs, look no further than Holo Audio.

ASR gave the Soekris board a thumbs up FYI

 

[StingRay]

If R2R are on the way out, what is replacing them?

 

[pmcuk]

If R2R are on the way out, what is replacing them?

I've heard that said, but is it true? Denafrips consistently comes in the top five or ten "top DACs". I'm beginning to see that R2R is a different sound, and one which divides listeners. Having heard it I'm not convinced so I'm also interested in what will be the "top" technology for DACs in a few years time. But I expect R2R to linger on for its fans.

 

[StingRay]

Yet another Chinese DAC: https://iiwireviews.com/ladder-schumann-best-r2r-dac-you-never-heard-about/

 

[karlsushi]

Terminology maybe wrong but are you not using a DAC as a preamp, if you connect it direct to a power amp?

Depends on your definition of a preamp. If you only have digital sources, then a well-implemented internal digital volume control on a DAC makes a lot of sense, following the theory that the best preamp is 'no preamp'.

But for many, taking one or more analogue sources and providing input switching between them is an essential property of a preamp. Clearly you miss out on this using a DAC with a purely digital control.

While it's true that internal digital volume controls can result in bit compression, there appears to be quite a few designers that have managed to implement bit-perfect digital volume control (PS Audio, dCS, Chord and Metrum spring to mind).

There are also plenty offering high quality analogue volume control e.g Lampizator, Bricasti Design and Holo Audio.

Horses for courses...

 

[rabski]

NOS and R2R don't seem to be on the way out. Anything but.