Speaker recommendations for Quad system

[uzzy]

I'm visiting their website, the new model looks very interesting and quite good looking too:

https://www.loudspeaker-art.com/art-loudspeakers-dram-12

How much does that cost? With those fancy SEAS drivers it can't be less than £7000.

Pity about the ported cabinet but otherwise very much on target.

I wonder if they'll have a room at the Leamington Spa show...

What is wrong with a ported enclosure?  To get the same out of a sealed box would require an even more massive cabinet and of course would reduce efficiency. 

I have lived with sealed boxes (Gales), Transmission lines and the Arts which are ported .. I leave you to guess which performed the best (well it led me to part with £000s to buy them and I do not part with my money easily).   I was comparing the Arts to my Lads DCM Timewindows 3 (a transmission line design whereas the earlier ones were a double port arrangement) .. the thing that is most noticeable about the Impressions is they are not there - the music at all frequencies flows effortlessly.  

I am sorry but it really gets up my nose when people say things like this - there are many accepted forms of cabinet design and the overall performance of the speaker is down to the designer .. their design either performs well or it doesn't  and that is down to the overall design and not the type of cabinet enclosure ,,, end of  (the same is true of many other things (MM versus MC, Unipivot versus Gimbal, etc. etc.)  I am waiting for someone to say the problem with electrostatics is they are dipole (as much energy out the back as the front) of course this is not a problem as such it is a design that requires careful placement.  Bose 901s have 90% of its sound radiated from the back and its sound in the right room with the right placement is excellent.   

The main problem with ports is that they may huff at you if they are badly designed - on the Arts the port on the monitors fires vertically from the speaker  as do the Impressions (no huffing projected then) and the floor standers they make now have the port firing down and radiated by the stand (no huffing at you there.   Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr ,, that has got that off my chest  

 

[tuga]

What is wrong with a ported enclosure?

Bass reflex is a crutch.

Yes it extends and/or increases the amplitude of the bottom end for a box of the same size, increments the sensitivity and reduces distortion at the resonant frequency.

There are two downsides: group delay and more importantly poor transient response. Instead of having a driver respond to the signal, the cabinet farts...

 

[greybeard]

Got that off your chest then Ric  :rofl:

 

[Tony_J]

Got that off your chest then Ric  :rofl:

Better out than in... :dunno:

 

[dudywoxer]

What, the comments, or the fart?

 

[Spen ago]

I’ve recently had a full Quad 99/909 system and tried quite a few speaker pairings. I have similar room dimensions, and the same limiting factor of speakers needing to be pretty close to the rear wall.

first thing I would say is be wary of the Kef R300, I started out with these as a hangover from a previous system. Close to wall they boom badly. Top end is a bit bright and unrefined compared to most. 

It took me a while to get the right match for the Quads, but as soon as I tried a BBC style speaker (Rogers Studio 1), it all made sense. Very natural sound, if a tad laid back.

To tighten things up I moved onto newer model Spendors, but found I had to go for relatively large floorstanders to get a near full range sound. Still have the S8e but with valve pre and SS power.

if you are limited to stand mounts I would start by trialing the S2s with a sub in your room. Gizlaroc on here used them to great effect with a Quad 405, and with a sub was happy to replace Z3 floorstanders (I think, give him a shout, great guy), wish I had of nabbed them when he sold on.

To avoid disappointment it goes without saying that you need to trial speakers in your room before committing, and don’t be afraid to go for older models, I pleasantly found out that a £450 set of Rogers compared well to the Harbeth contemporary worth £2.5k.

 

[uzzy]

Bass reflex is a crutch.

Yes it extends and/or increases the amplitude of the bottom end for a box of the same size, increments the sensitivity and reduces distortion at the resonant frequency.

There are two downsides: group delay and more importantly poor transient response. Instead of having a driver respond to the signal, the cabinet farts...

You miss the point - cabinet size and design - good design gives good sound end of .. now if you disagree go write to just about every manufacturer of loudspeakers from Wilson (Watt) to Spendor to Sonus Faber to Focal and all the other top end manufacturers (and middle and low end) that use ported or transmission line designs to provide a flat response to frequencies below 40 hertz and voice your concerns.   A throw away statement about ports being a crutch is quite frankly a load of bollocks - now I know I can do bullshit with the rest of them but I actually try to be constructive and objective from my limited standpoint.   

if you wish to persist with the theoretical with no regard to the actual  how it sounds then go ahead .. but the whole point of any piece of equipment is how it sounds .. and also the compromise of space and a host of other factors.   I have had my ears around many hundreds of loudspeakers, from selling them and setting them up in peoples houses to visiting other enthusiasts and I quote from my experience and what I actually know - to harp on about theoretical views well you carry on.  

To hear a fart it has to be of a high enough frequency (and will be a very cheap poorly designed speaker).. more usually the downside with ports is they can huff (now a comedian doing a huff is hardly likely to be interpreted as a fart)  but careful loudspeaker matching, port design and placement means that the huff, if any, is not audible .. which allows for a smaller cabinets than would be required to get the same response from a sealed box with the added advantage of needing less power for optimum performance.   

The theory is correct but what the theory does not tell you is if the affect is audible in any particular design - hence you need to listen .. I have lived with the Yamaha NS1000s and Gale GS401 and neither did anything better than what I have now but if I had a small room the Yamaha NS1000s or the Gales might do the job .. but there again so would the original Expression Monitors and host of other loudspeakers sporting ports .. 

 

[tuga]

You miss the point - cabinet size and design - good design gives good sound end of .. now if you disagree go write to just about every manufacturer of loudspeakers from Wilson (Watt) to Spendor to Sonus Faber to Focal and all the other top end manufacturers (and middle and low end) that use ported or transmission line designs to provide a flat response to frequencies below 40 hertz and voice your concerns.

I don't miss the point only the crisp transients.  I am sorry that you can't hear the difference.

My reference for low frequency clarity and realism is the bass bin of a BnW 801F. I've listened to a few of the most revered large ported speakers and the sub-bass just didn't cut it. Sure, bass reflex may be OK for a bit of boom-tc hizzz- boom but try playing the scherzo of Tchaikovsky's 4th after listening to it live and you will know what I mean.

Transmission lines are worse than reflex, in my view and somewhat limited experience.

 

[tuga]

The fact that "Wilson (Watt) to Spendor to Sonus Faber to Focal and all the other top end manufacturers (and middle and low end) that use ported or transmission line designs to provide a flat response to frequencies below 40 hertz" proves that it's a crutch. You don't want a vented box to resonate monotonically and under-damped, you want a driver to reproduce the signal in a pistonic fashion.

 

[graham67]

• The music i'll be playing will be quite varied; rock, neo-classical, metal, indie, post-rock, jazz, pop, electronica, ambient, experimental, drone etc.  
  

hi,

with your mix of music i would avoid classic BBC style standmounts such as harbeth, spendor classic, old rogers etc.  its not so much about the bass as they tend to lack the pace to bring rock to life.

i used to own rogers studio 1, as mentioned by spen and also ls6, and although sublime on acoustics vocals instrumental,  classical and fine on electronica they sounded slow and compressed on pop, rock and heavier material.

i find old Tannoys to be better for rhythm but my vintage jbl studio monitors trounce most for getting toes tapping. Although you may choose something else, I would make sure to check out the 10" kralk monitors mentioned by dudywoxer which should eat up the music you like as well as having the welly to fill a big space.

 

[tuga]

with your mix of music i would avoid classic BBC style standmounts such as harbeth, spendor classic, old rogers etc.  its not so much about the bass as they tend to lack the pace to bring rock to life.

I would tend to agree because these speakers have a tonal balance which is rich in the upper-bass. This will may sound overly "warm" and "full" with some types of music, and I find that a lot of people perceive such "ripeness" as "slow" and "muddy". Lovely set of adjectives, wouldn't you say? B|

It is also important to select the appropriate amplification. I had a Modwrigth integrated visit my room once and the low end it produced was unbearably "overweight" and "lifeless"...

 

[tuga]

I like Allison's idea of the cabinet against the wall. Some studios embed the speakers and that's even better... A less-finite baffle.

But I don't like the cubic shape and I don't understand the reason for the woofer on top; I'd go for a coaxial driver on semi-octahedron or a hemisphere, with a pair of corner woofers.

 

[uzzy]

What, the comments, or the fart?

He followed through perhaps? 

As to the uninformed comments above by another person further up, about ported enclosures .. this article explains clearly why modern designs with ported enclosures can be truly excellent.  So to say a ported loudspeaker will not perform as well as a sealed box and will have boom or tizz is a total nonsense .. it is all down to design ..   https://www.audioholics.com/loudspeaker-design/sealed-vs-ported

 

[bigfool1956]

The Revel Salon (which I used to own) and the Revel Salon 2 are both ported.

 

[uzzy]

The Revel Salon (which I used to own) and the Revel Salon 2 are both ported.

Aye and very good they are too .. 

 

[rabski]

Aye and very good they are too .. 

Don't you start talking like a bloody pirate. We've got enough on our plate as it is

 

[Black Beard]

Don't you start talking like a bloody pirate

Tis catching Ol' Rabski, let it be.

 

[uzzy]

Don't you start talking like a bloody pirate. We've got enough on our plate as it is

Pieces of 8 .. pieces of 8 ... pieces of 8 ... whose a pretty boy then ?

 

[Black Beard]

Arr.

 

[rabski]

whose a pretty boy then ?

1: who's

2: don't make me answer that question