Speaker recommendations for Quad system

tuga

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He followed through perhaps? 

As to the uninformed comments above by another person further up, about ported enclosures .. this article explains clearly why modern designs with ported enclosures can be truly excellent.  So to say a ported loudspeaker will not perform as well as a sealed box and will have boom or tizz is a total nonsense .. it is all down to design ..   https://www.audioholics.com/loudspeaker-design/sealed-vs-ported
I can also find links that support my claim:

A Guide To Better Bass

http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/a-guide-to-better-bass-tas-197-1/

There’s one more technical difference between sealed and ported enclosures you should know about before we talk about the sonic characteristics of the two types—transient performance. A woofer in a sealed enclosure, when subject to a transient signal such a kick drum, will tend to stop moving immediately after the transient.

Conversely, a woofer in a vented enclosure will tend to keep moving after the drive signal has stopped, as shown in Fig.2.

The speaker with the sealed enclosure has more accurate dynamic performance.

TAS197_Bass_Figure1&2.jpg


So why would a loudspeaker designer choose reflex loading if the bass rolls off much more steeply?

Because reflex loading confers several advantages.

First, it increases a loudspeaker’s maximum acoustic output level—it will play louder.

Second, it can make a loudspeaker more sensitive—it needs less amplifier power to achieve the same volume.

Third, it can lower a loudspeaker’s cut-off frequency—the bass goes deeper. Note that these benefits are not available simultaneously; the acoustic gain provided by reflex loading can be used either to increase a loudspeaker’s sensitivity or to extend its cut-off frequency, but not both.

.

I'll add that adding a sub-bass driver in a closed enclosure increases the cost and the size of the speaker, making it less atractive from a commercial point of view.

Three-way speakers are cheaper and smaller.

 

uzzy

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I'll add that adding a sub-bass driver in a closed enclosure increases the cost and the size of the speaker, making it less atractive from a commercial point of view.

Three-way speakers are cheaper and smaller.
I could argue with you but I can't be arsed ... you have it your way and all the experts out their designing the best speakers they can will do it their way (the majority of whom do it with ported enclosures)  .. although I did laugh when I saw that in your details it says your speakers are LS3/6 which are of course a ported enclosures ..   

 

tuga

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I could argue with you but I can't be arsed ... you have it your way and all the experts out their designing the best speakers they can will do it their way (the majority of whom do it with ported enclosures)  .. although I did laugh when I saw that in your details it says your speakers are LS3/6 which are of course a ported enclosures ..   
That's a pathetic low blow...

Can you afford the best? I can't. Besides my listening room, which I share with wife and two boys, is quite small.

That doesn't stop me from knowing which topologies perform better...

 

uzzy

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That's a pathetic low blow...

Can you afford the best? I can't. Besides my listening room, which I share with wife and two boys, is quite small.

That doesn't stop me from knowing which topologies perform better...
I do not see how that was a pathetic low blow - it was a statement of fact.

No one doubts in theory sealed boxes offer the best possible chance of best performance and in theory present an easier design problem  - however when it comes to cabinet size and with advances in driver crossover and port design, a reflex box can match a sealed box with considerably less size.  It has also been argued that with the latest designs that many of the theoretical problems have been overcome to the point that there are very few sealed box loudspeakers out there .. and also to the point that the theoretical problems are not presented aurally.

I spent over £10k on a pair of speakers and believe me I listened and considered a lot of speakers before parting with that kind of money .. at the end of the day I let my ears choose (well the wife let her ears choose first) not theory  ...   I also replaced a pair of Gale 401s with a Pair of PRO9TL home made transmission lines (which I picked up dirt cheap and then spent a bit modifying and improving with better mid and top end driver units and crossover upgrade etc.)  they were not perfect by any means but they were better than the Gales on just about every count and went very very low with no boom and definitely no tizz.  The only sealed box that bettered the Gales (or Yamaha NS1000s) to my ears were the Profile Model 11 which was an enclosure almost twice the size and with a very costly Volt bass unit to achieve only a slight increase in bass response over the Gales. 

I am perhaps fortunate that I can afford a lot but I am also a person who believes in price may not necessarily dictate what is best (I am very careful with my money so I am not prepared to part with it unless I think it is worth the price) and of course you then have to weigh up cost versus overall aural satisfaction ..

Perhaps I have been very fortunate that for a good few years of my life I worked in a shop and had my ears and hands around many items (and took them home to play with) which has allowed me to see that theory and practice are often worlds apart ..

So please for the sake of all the wammers out there who must be fed up to the teeth of me not being able to bite my tongue and let you have your little rants and quotes based on theory (and not on a wide aural experience of an actual product someone is asking about).

I do not give a monkies about the theory or whether it is ported or not, or has a 1st 2nd 3rd or 4th order network (in fact many manufacturers use a mixture in multi way speakers) .. at the end of the day it is euphony that counts and whether my ears like it not.   I state that I am giving a personal opinion (based on what my ears have heard not on what theory might indicate).  I might even suggest that theory may indicate that something might be the case but I always say let your own ears decide. 

Now you can come back and bollox all I say if you want but that is the end of this subject for me and good night :)    

 

Lord Rockingham

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Hi all

While I’ve enjoyed reading the WAM on and off for a few years this is my first post and hoping I can tap into some of the expertise on here. 

I’m in the process of getting my first proper hi-fi system having previously had to integrate into my AV set-up.  The equipment I have so far is;

Quad 909 power amp, Quad Qc 24 valve pre amp (with phono stage), Quad CDP-2 and Michell Gyrodec TT. 

However, I’m getting stuck when looking at speakers. I’m limited to standmounters which will be placed in my lounge measuring approx 7.1m x 5.7m (altho it is open-plan to a dining area and then kitchen meaning a large open space). Positioning is likely to be close to the rear wall behind the main seating position. My budget is up to £700 and was looking mainly s/h. 

Options I’d considered were B&W CM5 S2, Kef R300, Spendor S3/5R2 and then the new(ish) Quad S2s. I am sorely tempted by the latter given the great reviews they’ve received together with the fact the rest of the system is Quad based.  My concern however is that they might just get lost in the room and lack impact, which may be a risk in all of these. To mitigate this I do have a REL Quake SW that I could also deploy in this set-up (altho it would need to be shared by the AV system in my lounge).

One final point it would be good to get guidance on is streaming. I have all my music ripped to Apple Lossless and stored on a Mac mini and I’d like to be able to stream my library to this system in a cheap and efficient way. I do have the option of a Sonos connect but I’m not sure if that is overkill. 

I’ve been at this for a couple of months now so any and all thoughts / recommendations would be more than welcome so I can finally get on with listening to some music!

Thanks
Try giving Colin and Scott a ring at Reiver Acoustics. http://reiver-acoustic.com Scott designs and Colin builds. 

In particular have a look at their Milburn speaker. It is a 10" coaxial driver in a transmission line cabinet. I heard this a few weeks ago at a bake-off in the Doncaster area and it is both a a great sounding and looking speaker. 

I've no idea of the price, but I can't see it being much beyond your budget.

 
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tuga

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I do not see how that was a pathetic low blow - it was a statement of fact.

No one doubts in theory sealed boxes offer the best possible chance of best performance and in theory present an easier design problem  - however when it comes to cabinet size and with advances in driver crossover and port design, a reflex box can match a sealed box with considerably less size.  It has also been argued that with the latest designs that many of the theoretical problems have been overcome to the point that there are very few sealed box loudspeakers out there .. and also to the point that the theoretical problems are not presented aurally.

I spent over £10k on a pair of speakers and believe me I listened and considered a lot of speakers before parting with that kind of money .. at the end of the day I let my ears choose (well the wife let her ears choose first) not theory  ...   I also replaced a pair of Gale 401s with a Pair of PRO9TL home made transmission lines (which I picked up dirt cheap and then spent a bit modifying and improving with better mid and top end driver units and crossover upgrade etc.)  they were not perfect by any means but they were better than the Gales on just about every count and went very very low with no boom and definitely no tizz.  The only sealed box that bettered the Gales (or Yamaha NS1000s) to my ears were the Profile Model 11 which was an enclosure almost twice the size and with a very costly Volt bass unit to achieve only a slight increase in bass response over the Gales. 

I am perhaps fortunate that I can afford a lot but I am also a person who believes in price may not necessarily dictate what is best (I am very careful with my money so I am not prepared to part with it unless I think it is worth the price) and of course you then have to weigh up cost versus overall aural satisfaction ..

Perhaps I have been very fortunate that for a good few years of my life I worked in a shop and had my ears and hands around many items (and took them home to play with) which has allowed me to see that theory and practice are often worlds apart ..

So please for the sake of all the wammers out there who must be fed up to the teeth of me not being able to bite my tongue and let you have your little rants and quotes based on theory (and not on a wide aural experience of an actual product someone is asking about).

I do not give a monkies about the theory or whether it is ported or not, or has a 1st 2nd 3rd or 4th order network (in fact many manufacturers use a mixture in multi way speakers) .. at the end of the day it is euphony that counts and whether my ears like it not.   I state that I am giving a personal opinion (based on what my ears have heard not on what theory might indicate).  I might even suggest that theory may indicate that something might be the case but I always say let your own ears decide. 

Now you can come back and bollox all I say if you want but that is the end of this subject for me and good night :)    
So now "No one doubts in theory sealed boxes offer the best possible chance of best performance"...

Then why are you so upset?

 

uzzy

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So now "No one doubts in theory sealed boxes offer the best possible chance of best performance"...

Then why are you so upset?
For the love of wotsits . I should just bite my tongue and say nothing .... (and most of the wammers out there probably wish I would)

I am not upset as such, it is just that I hate when people throw a comment "Pity about the ported cabinet but otherwise very much on target." when they haven't heard them and then, when pulled up on it, spout a load of theory to support the statement (when there is just as much alternative theory about driver unit design, crossover and port designs to show that there is no clear cut advantage to a sealed box in practice).     It is a bit like saying to a guy the specs on your amp look interesting - pity it has valves.    

If you haven't heard something it is a bit silly to state that something in the design is wrong and then go on to refer to such designs as a crutch.  No one doubts the theory but theories have changed and been updated with development and theory and practice often do not coincide.   

We are dealing with sound and when a person asks for recommendations we give our opinions on what to look for - this one got up my nose because it was a throw away comment about an item you saw on the internet and decided if it has a port it has to be a shame ..  

 

Faithless

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Aye - hence not recommended for his budget - but all the others are well within (except PMC and Spendor unless second hand) .. don't blame me the missus made me buy them :)
I sense a diamond tweeter upgrade some time...…...

 

uzzy

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I sense a diamond tweeter upgrade some time...…...
I have had a look but - not sure the missus will agree to a £6k addition .. fortunately I doubt I will hear a pair of Impressions with the diamond tweeter next to mine :)   If I win the lottery though I will check out the Alnico 15s with the diamond tweeter as I should be also able to buy a house with a listening room to do them justice .. 

 
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I have had a look but - not sure the missus will agree to a £6k addition .. fortunately I doubt I will hear a pair of Impressions with the diamond tweeter next to mine :)   If I win the lottery though I will check out the Alnico 15s with the diamond tweeter as I should be also able to buy a house with a listening room to do them justice .. 
Alnico tweeter upgrade perhaps? Stop. I am beginning to sound like a Naimy,  ie never satisfied. Why upgrade if you like what you have already. Enjoy your Impressions. I have had the pleasure and they are superb loudspeakers. Enjoy !

 

uzzy

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Alnico tweeter upgrade perhaps? Stop. I am beginning to sound like a Naimy,  ie never satisfied. Why upgrade if you like what you have already. Enjoy your Impressions. I have had the pleasure and they are superb loudspeakers. Enjoy !
I was never as keen on the Crescendo as others (I always felt it drew attention to itself) as such I never changed my horn loaded MDT33 for them .. the move to the Alnico tweeter to my ears was a major improvement on the Crescendo .. and it might be an improvement in mine.  Having said that there is something about the original set up that I love - close your eyes and you cannot conceive that the sound is coming from a pair of boxes or how many drive units are actually employed.  When you turn them up they just get louder but no change in balance (no harshness appearing at high volumes) and you do not realise how loud the volume is until you turn to talk to someone and it as though you are miming cos no one can hear you speak :)  ... I am not a Naimy - when I used to sell the stuff in the 70s I actually preferred the Meridian 101/105 or 103D over the Naim stuff .. but I can understand why some people like it.  

I see you have the Alnico Precision ... gorgeous loudspeaker ... seems we both enjoy :)  

 

Faithless

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I was never as keen on the Crescendo as others (I always felt it drew attention to itself) as such I never changed my horn loaded MDT33 for them .. the move to the Alnico tweeter to my ears was a major improvement on the Crescendo .. and it might be an improvement in mine.  Having said that there is something about the original set up that I love - close your eyes and you cannot conceive that the sound is coming from a pair of boxes or how many drive units are actually employed.  When you turn them up they just get louder but no change in balance (no harshness appearing at high volumes) and you do not realise how loud the volume is until you turn to talk to someone and it as though you are miming cos no one can hear you speak :)  ... I am not a Naimy - when I used to sell the stuff in the 70s I actually preferred the Meridian 101/105 or 103D over the Naim stuff .. but I can understand why some people like it.  

I see you have the Alnico Precision ... gorgeous loudspeaker ... seems we both enjoy :)  
Yes we do Uzzy, I've had the pleasure of many Arts over the years and despite moving away to some PMCs, Tannoys,  Dynaudios, and Kefs, and some lovely high end Monitor Audio's I eventually found my happiness with my current Alnicos.

Apologies to the OP for digressing. My advise is you can get some fine sounding loudspeakers second hand for around the £700 mark. I currently have a pair of Tannoy DC6T floor standers in a dining room system and for the money they are a bargain. I paid £450 for a minty pair and they sound very close to some £2000 Kefs that I previously owned.

Pick wisely and hopefully you will enjoy what you choose. If you don't like them, move them on and look for something else. I love box swapping, some items are better than others, and some will be keepers until something else comes along. It's all part of the journey. Why stick with one item when you can experience something else. I find so many different pieces of hifi have their own sonic character and it's a joy listening to all that's out there. It's all a voyage of discovery. Good luck with your quest.

 
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tuga

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this one got up my nose because it was a throw away comment about an item you saw on the internet and decided if it has a port it has to be a shame .. 
Honestly, are you upset because you feel I have "slandered" the Arts?

 

uzzy

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Honestly, are you upset because you feel I have "slandered" the Arts?
Absolutely not - I have explained upways, downways, leftways and  rightways and you persist  ..

I don't give a monkies what anyone says about something they have listened to that is an honest opinion based on fact and we all know we may not hear things the same .. Likes and dislikes based on actually listening to a product is fine we all have our ideas of what is right when it comes to sound.   

I hate it when people spout theory (ignoring other theories) and put down any product they have not auditioned.  In many cases theory is not always proved one way or the other in practice abdthings claimed in theory may not be audible on audition ..

It is a bit like saying to someone buying a car , "you do not want to buy a diesel as it has been proved their are problems with the diesel particulate filters".  Yes there are but it depends on the type of DPF system used, and the average journey of the user. Or how about "that sports car looks nice but it is a shame it has pistons" as it has been proved theoretically that a wankel engine produces more power are lighter and less complex than a piston engine  ... so please just stop..

 

tuga

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I hate it when people spout theory (ignoring other theories) and put down any product they have not auditioned.  In many cases theory is not always proved one way or the other in practice abdthings claimed in theory may not be audible on audition ..
Hate is a strong word; unfortunatelly its use has become more popular in the post-Trump/Brexit world.

I don't understand why you are feeling threatened by my comments when you've stated are unable to "audition" the shortcomings of bass-reflex.

I suspect that you are feeling offended because I put down the Arts. Get over it, they're just speakers.

P.S.: the current model is actually quite interesting, as I've mentioned in my initial comments, just a tad expensive; but something I would definitely audition

I'm visiting their website, the new model looks very interesting and quite good looking too:

https://www.loudspeaker-art.com/art-loudspeakers-dram-12

How much does that cost? With those fancy SEAS drivers it can't be less than £7000.

Pity about the ported cabinet but otherwise very much on target.

I wonder if they'll have a room at the Leamington Spa show...
 
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