Subwoofer vs Large floorstanders

[dr.sah]

I'm using 2x JL E-112 subs with my gallo ref 3.5, and controlling them with dspeaker dual core.

 

[Radioham]

I prefer large floor-standers, as never had much success with trying to integrate a sub with stand mount speakers. I cant remember what make the sub was, but the speakers were sonus faber.

Alan

 

[Andrei]

When I got my current floorstanders - Triangle Magellan Cello - I found that I simply did not need my Velodyne sub any longer. I think there is a lot of merit in having a two way speaker in a smaller enclosure and adding a sub. That way you get the benefit of the smaller enclosure - easier to control - and leave the bass to the 'experts'.

 

[v1nn1e]

Ah, this is a very pertinent post for me!

Whilst I like my speakers very much and feel that they do bass pretty well for what they are, spec is down to ~32Hz, allegedly, I have been just starting to think about maybe considering an upgrade. Now, I don't box change very often and I've only had my GR20's for 5 years so it seems a bit soon to be changing.

Anyway, I stumbled across an old post that was resurrected last December regarding the most recent Proac range, featuring ribbon tweeters and carbon fibre mid-bass units. As the technology is always of interest to me, light and rigid CF seems like a good starting point for some cone material, and likewise the extremely low mass of ribbon tweeters also appeals for HF performance.

So, those very nice people at Unilet in New Malden let me come and listen to a pair of D30R's and also some D20R's, alongside a pair of PMC 24's.

Well, the D30R's bass is really quite amazing. Nominally down to 20Hz and really revealing on a couple of bass test tracks I use - Loving Arm from Metronomy's English Riviera and No Comprende from Low, Ones and Sixes. However, their demo room is quite a good size, compared to my home room which is pretty tiny - about 14ftx10ft, give or take. Plus, the D30R's are £4k7 :shock: Having said that, I haven't seen any other specs that come close from other manufacturers below about £8k - making them almost good VfM!!!!!!! :shock:

It had led me to start thinking about a sub, but I've got no experience with them and no sub-out or anything like that from my amp. Sounds like integrating a sub with my existing GR20s may not be straight forward.

 

[Rodney Gold]

Your cyrus pre does seem to have pre outs..thats where you hook up the active sub/s

Get a cheap minidsp 2x4 to do correction and integrating

$105

https://www.minidsp.com/products/minidsp-in-a-box/minidsp-2x4

Get the umik 1 mic for $70 , measure , correct the peaks..

 

[startingfromscratch]

Just got back from a very busy weekend so I haven't had time to respond, but there have been some great replies and PMs in response to my request.

I'm not surprised but there still seems to be a leaning towards 2 subs on more traditional hifi forums to even out the sound and a bias towards 1 sub on AV forums to stop all the bass sound waves cancelling each other out. I can see merits of both, my right ear is more sensitive to bass resonances than my left so I prefer bass central or on the left side somewhere. Although you're not supposed to be able to tell the direction of deep bass I can tell which ear is getting more which can be odd, especially if it's boomy and one ear is "complaining"

As a test I tried 2 subs at the front of the room (a £1000 REL s/2 and a £500 DALI E12F) quite wide apart without the main speakers playing, both firing towards me and fed with the same signal from an AV amp, crossovers at roughly 80Hz. I measured the response and looking at the graph I didn't get any louder volume of bass using 2 subs as I did from one (supporting the cancelling out theory). I did get a higher unwanted bounce at 110Hz with both subs running. The DALI was slightly more boomy than the REL but with both running the boominess was somewhere between the two (ie the decay of the bass was slightly quicker when both were running than when just the DALI was running) also supporting the cancelling out theory.

I also tried the subs on their sides and firing upwards balanced on a sofa arm (ie off the floor a bit) but it wasn't hugely different.

I don't have a lot of space around the floor after the room treatment and I'd prefer not to be looking at ugly square boxes so I'm hoping one beside the main sofa on my left side roughly 180 degrees out of phase and firing towards the front wall might be ok (I tried the REL like this briefly and it seemed ok although not as fast as the main speakers). I'm guessing that a downwards firing sub would be hard to work out the phase for but some twiddling and/or measuring should get me there eventually.

The DALI is a front firing design with a downwards facing port hence the deeper bass and slightly more resonance, the REL has a front firing active and a downward facing passive radiator, neither would probably be boomy in a bigger or better room.

 

[startingfromscratch]

How did the D20Rs sound compared to the D30Rs? I found the bass a little bit boomy on the D20Rs but that is mainly due to my room. I'd like something with more bass extension (especially for movies) and slightly tighter bass without being overall louder in the bass than the D20R. I'm guessing the D30R will have more bass and be better suited to a larger room but without having heard any I can't be sure. Ditto for the D40R.

Ah, this is a very pertinent post for me!Whilst I like my speakers very much and feel that they do bass pretty well for what they are, spec is down to ~32Hz, allegedly, I have been just starting to think about maybe considering an upgrade. Now, I don't box change very often and I've only had my GR20's for 5 years so it seems a bit soon to be changing.

Anyway, I stumbled across an old post that was resurrected last December regarding the most recent Proac range, featuring ribbon tweeters and carbon fibre mid-bass units. As the technology is always of interest to me, light and rigid CF seems like a good starting point for some cone material, and likewise the extremely low mass of ribbon tweeters also appeals for HF performance.

So, those very nice people at Unilet in New Malden let me come and listen to a pair of D30R's and also some D20R's, alongside a pair of PMC 24's.

Well, the D30R's bass is really quite amazing. Nominally down to 20Hz and really revealing on a couple of bass test tracks I use - Loving Arm from Metronomy's English Riviera and No Comprende from Low, Ones and Sixes. However, their demo room is quite a good size, compared to my home room which is pretty tiny - about 14ftx10ft, give or take. Plus, the D30R's are £4k7 :shock: Having said that, I haven't seen any other specs that come close from other manufacturers below about £8k - making them almost good VfM!!!!!!! :shock:

It had led me to start thinking about a sub, but I've got no experience with them and no sub-out or anything like that from my amp. Sounds like integrating a sub with my existing GR20s may not be straight forward.

 

[startingfromscratch]

I was maybe thinking that if I can't get the resonance at 40-50Hz in the room tamed I could set the AV amp crossover at 50Hz and the subwoofer crossover at 40Hz to hopefully lower the bass a bit between those values (might need tweaking to 30 & 60Hz or some other value to get it right).

If you're going to set a subwoofer crossover to 80Hz, then also roll off the mains at 80Hz so they don't try reproducing anything that's being sent to the sub. By doing that, you'll be reducing distortion considerably and increasing power handling so the mains will go louder without distorting. This assumes enough headroom on the main amps, and a low distortion sub, but that's the right way to do sub-sat systems, in my view.I prefer larger three way 'speakers than a sub-sat system, as I can't get on with mono bass. There's something wrong, perhaps near the crossover where bass goes from being mono to stereo, that I can't specifically identify, but I've never found a single sub that satisfying.

S

 

[startingfromscratch]

You've hit the nail on the head with the speaker/room interaction, but I think I'm going to get the same problem with any speakers that produce a reasonable amount of bass in this room (I've tried about 6 pairs so far which all have a problem in the 40-50Hz range). I've gone back to some standmounts as they start rolling off below 50Hz but that's not something I can put up with long term. I was thinking about a sub as then I could use some DSP (eg an Anti-Mode) to tame the bass peaks. There are a few more tweaks I might be able to do to tame the room but probably not much more.

Fill in your kit list or say what the current speakers are?It's the most common problem in HiFi...trying to sort bass response in a room. The answer IME is far likelier to be that your current speaker/room interaction is horrible, and throwing a different bass making machine at the room won't help (you can easily move a sub around, which is good, but as you have found, subs tend NOT to be designed for HiFi useage, more for AV and party work. Some exist that are specific to speakers (horns for example) but these cost a small car).

Maybe the best answer is to buy speakers which really do do bass properly and then tweak the room acoustics to suit them?

The 'proper' way to get bass is with a lot of bass cone area..one or two 15" drivers per cabinet, or 4 8" ones and then an amp with a steel fist of control...something large, probably class A, preferably american monoblocks.

 

[Guest]

Have a look at a Velodyne DD sub.

Run a monitor from the sub.

Very tuneable...

 

[startingfromscratch]

That looks good, I was looking at the SVS subs yesterday which have 1 peak you can dial out which you can adjust the peak frequency and also the amount either side (top left 3 dials) which might be enough:

The Velodyne has a lot more adjustment over the band though.

Have a look at a Velodyne DD sub.Run a monitor from the sub.

Very tuneable...

 

[hcanning]

I wouldn't use a subwoofer with large floorstanders unless I enjoyed a specific type of demanding music - reggae, dubstep, organ music, that sort of thing. Even then, I'd cross it over at about 40-50hz so it's only doing the real low stuff. For most music I much prefer the tightness and integration of floorstanders on their own. Most can easily delve deep enough. I'm listening to my Kefs now and I'm definitely not wanting for any more bass.

For AV use my speakers are all crossed over at 80hz with the sub, but LFE effects are a different kettle of fish, and my 2ch system is separate if need be anyway.

 

[startingfromscratch]

My experience so far backs up what you are saying but when I read stuff online it always claims that "subwoofer X produces outstanding clean, fast bass" and that to produce deep notes you need a lot more power to control the speakers. In theory a specialised speaker with a large amplifier ought to be able to produce faster, punchier bass than your average floorstanders with their lower powered amps and resonant cabinets. I was hoping that in the real world this would also be true but so far I've been disappointed.

I wouldn't use a subwoofer with large floorstanders unless I enjoyed a specific type of demanding music - reggae, dubstep, organ music, that sort of thing. Even then, I'd cross it over at about 40-50hz so it's only doing the real low stuff. For most music I much prefer the tightness and integration of floorstanders on their own. Most can easily delve deep enough. I'm listening to my Kefs now and I'm definitely not wanting for any more bass. For AV use my speakers are all crossed over at 80hz with the sub, but LFE effects are a different kettle of fish, and my 2ch system is separate if need be anyway.

 

[JamPal]

Subs are for wimps. ;-)

 

[bandit pilot]

Subs are for wimps. ;-)

Damn right!

Just get a room that booms. :^

Seriously though, I've had better successes integrating a sub with small speakers in here than I have with big speakers. Problem is, I love the presence and effortlessness you get from the latter.

I much prefer the sound and tunability of a sealed box sub, but then I only really used one to 'flesh out' some small monitors.

 

[hcanning]

My experience so far backs up what you are saying but when I read stuff online it always claims that "subwoofer X produces outstanding clean, fast bass" and that to produce deep notes you need a lot more power to control the speakers. In theory a specialised speaker with a large amplifier ought to be able to produce faster, punchier bass than your average floorstanders with their lower powered amps and resonant cabinets. I was hoping that in the real world this would also be true but so far I've been disappointed.

You just have to make sure you've got an amp(s) with enough grunt

I've yet to hear a sub that produces bass that's as clean and fast with music as a set of sizeable floorstanders. Deep, sure. But like I said, to me certainly, bass requirements for music and AV are different.

 

[Non-Smoking Man]

Dylan - if have a look at the DIY section on this Forum I think you will find a number of members who cannot be said to be members of a 'herd mentality' belonging to this or any Forum. In particular I'm referring to we Horn System enthusiasts who are forced into 'doing it for ourselves' because very little exists in the conventional marketplace that satisfies our needs for sensible money.

Horn bass can be had for reasonable money if you can house it. Its not pretty and its not unobtrusive but a PA touring subwoofer in a typical folded horn cab with an 18" driver can be had for £300. I bought 4 of these from the Happy Mondays touring system for £800.

I realise the thread assumes a 'domestic-style' system -either AV or 2 channel-nonhorn - but there is another way, namely multi-horns.

Jack

 

[startingfromscratch]

There are thankfully always those who go against the herd, I was just trying to feel a feel of the majority opinion and how it differs across forums, I find human psychology fascinating. I need to hear some of those big horns, there's no way they're going to fit in my room but I'm interested in the technology and curious to how they sound. Scalford is hopefully going to be a enlightening experience for me.

Dylan - if have a look at the DIY section on this Forum I think you will find a number of members who cannot be said to be members of a 'herd mentality' belonging to this or any Forum. In particular I'm referring to we Horn System enthusiasts who are forced into 'doing it for ourselves' because very little exists in the conventional marketplace that satisfies our needs for sensible money.Horn bass can be had for reasonable money if you can house it. Its not pretty and its not unobtrusive but a PA touring subwoofer in a typical folded horn cab with an 18" driver can be had for £300. I bought 4 of these from the Happy Mondays touring system for £800.

I realise the thread assumes a 'domestic-style' system -either AV or 2 way - but there is another way.

Jack

 

[startingfromscratch]

If this is indeed true then I'd like to ask everybody why is this so? It it difficult technically? Is it that all subs are designed for movies or is it that it's all marketing spin and they're just a fashion fad? I'm an optimist so I shall keep trying more options for a while.

You just have to make sure you've got an amp(s) with enough grunt I've yet to hear a sub that produces bass that's as clean and fast with music as a set of sizeable floorstanders. Deep, sure. But like I said, to me certainly, bass requirements for music and AV are different.

 

[joleyami]

A well integrated Sub can add benefit to any system.

My Paradigm Sub1's were so fast, subtle and refined they would compliment any speaker I have heard, including Electrostatics and Horns.

Saying that they also had enough headroom to cause structural damage.

Those that doubt have obviously not heard good quality well integrated Subs.