Subwoofer vs Large floorstanders

[danilo]

Subs are Sketchy Yess sometimes they can be setup configured to be seamless.

But not always and even arguably: rarely.

No news there.. only the gradual acceptance of the things over the years.

But hey! whatever Floats your boat is all that really matters.

 

[Rodney Gold]

I run 4 SVS subs with giya G1's.. the mains are full range and I do not cross them over.

the 4 subs are actually used to reinforce the very bottom end as well as destructively drive room nodes..IE their interaction actually smoothes the bass response

The subs not only make the bass even more articulate , but they have a secondary effect in that they widen and deepen the soundstage and give more ambient cues

integration is the key with any sub..and a cheap miniDSP 2x4 ($105) will allow you to do this easily , especially in combination with measurements taken via REW.. rather bypass the subs internal processing and use that.

2 smaller subs is better than one .. use them at the midpoints of your side walls and then put one out of phase.

NEVER try to get flat measurements in the low bass.. it will sound bass light .. you need to lift the bass from about 120hz downwards to your lower limit , you must have a bass hump..it's called a "house curve"

 

[Guest]

Scalford is hopefully going to be a enlightening experience for me.

Scalford, ground floor, PDR.

Drop in & we'll play around with the sub settings on the TV monitor.

IME once you're happy with the crossover point, and you've boosted/reduced/moved frequency bands to suit the room, every vinyl, cd, stream, DVD is different, so just needs the sub gain tweaking up or down.

 

[v1nn1e]

How did the D20Rs sound compared to the D30Rs? I found the bass a little bit boomy on the D20Rs but that is mainly due to my room. I'd like something with more bass extension (especially for movies) and slightly tighter bass without being overall louder in the bass than the D20R. I'm guessing the D30R will have more bass and be better suited to a larger room but without having heard any I can't be sure. Ditto for the D40R.

startingfromscratch,

The D30R's were awesome, much deeper than the D20R's. Not boomey at all, very controlled. The Metronomy track I now know has a very low bass melody line that I could only hear clearly on the D30R's. I wouldn't have said that the D20R's were boomey though, just not as low as the D30R's, so clearly there is some room interaction stuff going on. My guess is the Unilet room is around ~4-4.5m-ish wide by ~5-6m-ish long.

I'd be interested to understand more about room size and bass response and attenuation. On a very rough comparison with the D20R's (paper spec ~28Hz) in the Unilet room and my own GR20's in my little room, my (highly subjective) impression is that the GR20's aren't doing a bad job at around that low 30Hz level, I don't get any boom and it's nicely controlled. The D20R's were just going that touch lower. Whether you would be able to get down into the 20-something Hz in a smaller room or whether it would all just go belly-up and boomey, I don't know.

I would definitely recommend listening to the D30R's - there doesn't appear to be anything else that comes close in the bass department, in that sized and priced package.

 

[startingfromscratch]

I have a small resonance at 32Hz and a larger one at 46Hz due to the dimensions of the room so going deeper than the D20R shouldn't be a problem, the bass seemed a bit too much between 40 and 50Hz because of the resonance, if the D30R is more bassy then I might find it boomy, if it is just deeper then I should be ok. There seem to be more D30Rs for sale at the moment so I might have to audition some, getting away without a sub for music and just buying a cheap one for AV would be a bonus.

startingfromscratch,The D30R's were awesome, much deeper than the D20R's. Not boomey at all, very controlled. The Metronomy track I now know has a very low bass melody line that I could only hear clearly on the D30R's. I wouldn't have said that the D20R's were boomey though, just not as low as the D30R's, so clearly there is some room interaction stuff going on. My guess is the Unilet room is around ~4-4.5m-ish wide by ~5-6m-ish long.

I'd be interested to understand more about room size and bass response and attenuation. On a very rough comparison with the D20R's (paper spec ~28Hz) in the Unilet room and my own GR20's in my little room, my (highly subjective) impression is that the GR20's aren't doing a bad job at around that low 30Hz level, I don't get any boom and it's nicely controlled. The D20R's were just going that touch lower. Whether you would be able to get down into the 20-something Hz in a smaller room or whether it would all just go belly-up and boomey, I don't know.

I would definitely recommend listening to the D30R's - there doesn't appear to be anything else that comes close in the bass department, in that sized and priced package.

 

[Pussycat]

I've never had any experience with subs, as I've always had large floor-standers. It has been suggested that I add subs to my large Quads 'statics, but what I can't figure out is this; if Martin Logan took such a long time in perfecting the integration of moving coil and electrostatic panels, how can subs integrate? I s'pose it's the response (speed) difference between the two formats which concern me, but quite a few people do add subs to their panel speakers, so what's the real situation?

 

[tuga]

Gradient has developed dedicated subs for the ESL-57 and -63:

http://www.gradient.fi/Gradient/SW-D.html

R

 

[startingfromscratch]

Scalford, ground floor, PDR.Drop in & we'll play around with the sub settings on the TV monitor.

IME once you're happy with the crossover point, and you've boosted/reduced/moved frequency bands to suit the room, every vinyl, cd, stream, DVD is different, so just needs the sub gain tweaking up or down.

Thanks, I'll take you up on that offer at Scalford

I've noticed that in my brief playing with subs and surround setups, every track, movie etc needs adjusting, a bit annoying having to watch the start of a film for 10 minutes to get the sub and rear levels correct before inviting friends round and starting watching from the beginning again. I was hoping to avoid that for music. The D20Rs just needed the bass reducing a bit (either by tone controls or by setting a crossover at 40 or 50Hz to roll off the bass) for about 15% of music so not too bad. I don't remember ever thinking I needed more bass with them.

 

[Camverton]

I've never had any experience with subs, as I've always had large floor-standers. It has been suggested that I add subs to my large Quads 'statics, but what I can't figure out is this; if Martin Logan took such a long time in perfecting the integration of moving coil and electrostatic panels, how can subs integrate? I s'pose it's the response (speed) difference between the two formats which concern me, but quite a few people do add subs to their panel speakers, so what's the real situation?

I think that one of the problems of adding a sub to an electrostatic panel is that people expect there to be a difference in the "speed" between lower frequencies and the rest of the frequency range, and then hear it. Well, they probably do, but I wonder if that is more to do with the nature of bass instruments sounding more ponderous anyway.

The trick with subs is to cross over to the mains as low as possible, or if using the subs to add to the bass to keep the upper frequency limit of the bass as low as possible. For film the standard of 80Hz works well, but for music only, a lower point can give better integration. Ironically, I have found subs most useful with speakers that already have decent bass response.

Another advantage of keeping the crossover to 80Hz or below is that having two subs isn't necessary, although it may be easier to set up. Adjusting the phase of a sub for two speakers that are different distance from the sub does involve some compromise. Fortunately, it is down at the area where some compromise can be tolerated.

 

[nick dartmoor]

I always heard this whole "subs not integrating with panel speakers, due to speed", etc. So when I got ESL 57s, and decided to set them up with a pair of REL subs, I was fully expecting it to sound a bit shit. Nope. Just sounds bloody amazing, and has blown the socks off everyone who's heard the system. Took me no time to get them dialled in - couple of adjustments and that was it. Tried turning off the subs a few times, to check whether I'm deluding myself. Nope, it's a MASSIVE improvement. One of the most deeply satisfying sounds I've ever heard. If there is any incompatibility there, it's light-years beyond my nit-picking threshold. The sound is just totally addictive - I have to tear myself away.

 

[omegatt]

So when I got ESL 57s, and decided to set them up with a pair of REL subs, I was fully expecting it to sound a bit shit. Nope. Just sounds bloody amazing, and has blown the socks off everyone who's heard the system. Took me no time to get them dialled in - couple of adjustments and that was it

Which REL subs Nick ?

 

[nick dartmoor]

Pair of old Q50s!

But I'm going to change to Q100e, which are better, which I currently have in another system.

 

[Guest]

Thanks, I'll take you up on that offer at ScalfordI've noticed that in my brief playing with subs and surround setups, every track, movie etc needs adjusting, a bit annoying having to watch the start of a film for 10 minutes to get the sub and rear levels correct before inviting friends round and starting watching from the beginning again. I was hoping to avoid that for music. The D20Rs just needed the bass reducing a bit (either by tone controls or by setting a crossover at 40 or 50Hz to roll off the bass) for about 15% of music so not too bad. I don't remember ever thinking I needed more bass with them.

See you at Scally, Dylan.

IME once the sub has been set up for the room (the Velo DD is very tweakable) its just a case of using the remote to adjust gain.

Plus the remote has a number of presets, Movies, Rock/Pop, Clasical, etc etc.

 

[omegatt]

Thanks Nick, cheap ones then !

 

[nick dartmoor]

Yep

The Q series subs just did their job well, and you can pick them up for peanuts now.

 

[startingfromscratch]

Yeah, the remote is a big plus for me (I can do it remotely on the AV amp but it's a bit fiddly)

See you at Scally, Dylan.IME once the sub has been set up for the room (the Velo DD is very tweakable) its just a case of using the remote to adjust gain.

Plus the remote has a number of presets, Movies, Rock/Pop, Clasical, etc etc.

 

[startingfromscratch]

I think with subs they're very dependant on the room, if you have a room with good dimensions and not too much echoing of bass notes then I guess most subs will be easy to integrate. If like me you have parallel walls of reflective plasterboard and hard surfaces everywhere then subs will need careful positioning and help from DSP.

I always heard this whole "subs not integrating with panel speakers, due to speed", etc. So when I got ESL 57s, and decided to set them up with a pair of REL subs, I was fully expecting it to sound a bit shit. Nope. Just sounds bloody amazing, and has blown the socks off everyone who's heard the system. Took me no time to get them dialled in - couple of adjustments and that was it. Tried turning off the subs a few times, to check whether I'm deluding myself. Nope, it's a MASSIVE improvement. One of the most deeply satisfying sounds I've ever heard. If there is any incompatibility there, it's light-years beyond my nit-picking threshold. The sound is just totally addictive - I have to tear myself away.

 

[Guest]

I think with subs they're very dependant on the room, if you have a room with good dimensions and not too much echoing of bass notes then I guess most subs will be easy to integrate. If like me you have parallel walls of reflective plasterboard and hard surfaces everywhere then subs will need careful positioning and help from DSP.

Corner bass traps, some acoustic panels and dont put your sub in a corner

 

[startingfromscratch]

Check, check and check - The first 2 have helped but the room dimensions are causing the resonance. I've not put a sub in a corner but they're hard to position away from a wall completely. Next step might be to try some DSP.

Corner bass traps, some acoustic panels and dont put your sub in a corner

 

[Rodney Gold]

Dunno your system , but download J rivers trial and use the DSP studio to apply some parametric filters to see if it helps..take it from there.. try a gain of -6db and a q of 2 and then sweep across the low freqs till you target the zone/zones you want to see to and then fine tune em..