its still worth keeping them plugged in. i unplugged them to go on holiday and they always took a few days to hget up to speed . its just not worth it
Martin Logan
- Thread starter hifinutt
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Start date
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good thread on positioning
https://www.martinloganowners.com/threads/esl-finer-positioning-placement.19157/
https://www.martinloganowners.com/threads/esl-finer-positioning-placement.19157/
Well, what an odd room I have. I have always felt that the shape ("L"), the horrid floor, the combination of open spaces and glass and the layout does weird things to the acoustics, but this evening I'm even more perplexed than ever.
So in anticipation of the arrival of my Primalunas in a couple of weeks, I have rearranged the lounge this week. I was always a bit concerned about the proximity of the rack and my TT wall shelf to the right hand speaker, and as there was simply no room whatsoever to accommodate the two big and hot chassis of the Dialogues, it all had to move. At the moment I don't have the TT set up as I need to get some help with re-mounting the shelf, which my dad is going to lend a hand with this weekend, so it's CD and streaming (from my own NAS) only. Oh, and as the Gato sold, I have pressed my trusty-friend--but-very-much-out-of-its-depth Pioneer A400 into use again. Poor thing, deserves an easier ride in its old age than driving a pair of reactive ESLs! Finally, for sh*ts and giggles I have acquired some new speaker cables courtesy of johns of this very parish, some Chord Epic Twin, shorter, beefier and rather less flexible than the Kimber 8PR it replaces!
After the rearrangements, I thought I'd have a little play around with the positioning of the Summits. I wasn't convinced they were in the right place or at the optimum angle and thought I'd have a bit of fun moving them around. To be truthful, it's the first "proper" move they have had since I got them home and installed them, so fair to say they had a decent crack at the whip in the old position.
I've brought them another 30cm into the room (away from the front wall) so he middle of the panel is now almost 2m from the wall (yes, I'm fortunate to have the luxury of doing that). I have also given them a far more pronounced toe-in, where before they were firing almost straight down the room. Overall, it's a far more nearfield setup than before so the normal listening position is now 3m from the panels, which are still about 1.6m apart, inner edge to inner edge. There's almost a metre behind my head to the rear wall.
So the first thing I noticed was, "where's the bloody bass gone?" Compared to the previous location (which I was listening to yesterday, so still with the A400 and the Chord cables), there was no oomph! The sound was anaemic. I've had the 50Hz control adjusted down to -3.75dB to get a more balanced overall bass, but now I've had to put the control back to flat, and back has come the bass, hurrah!
Second thing I've noticed in the lower registers is that there seems to be less unevenness, i.e. nulls and peaks. OK so it's early days and I may h=find over the next few days with more listening that I'm aware of them again, but the initial reaction was of a better bass response, so that repositioning seems to be of benefit.
What the move has highlighted though, and this is something I have never noticed before, is that if I lean forward in my seat, there is a significant increase in dynamics, especially noticeable with kick drum and snare. It also feels as though you have adjusted the mix and brought up the level of the drums compared to other instruments while flattening the sense of image depth. It's a most bizarre change and I'm at a loss to understand how that can be... but it's absolutely repeatable every time I lean forward and then back again. It's like the leading edge of the notes becomes clearer and more defined. Sitting back again makes the sound seem flaccid and a little ill-defined by comparison. In addition there is a perception of less room interaction, I suppose that's down to being even closer to the panels meaning less in the way of first reflections reaching my ears?
In the normal leant-back position the imaging is really good, there is a lot more perception of stage width and depth and the presentation is detached from the bounds of the speakers so it hangs in the air behind them, like my old QAs used to do. I'm really pleased to have got that back again because to me it's one of the things I enjoy the most about listening to music - the illusion of performers in a space, even if that's an artificial one. Thing is, leaning forward exaggerates that sense of music in the air even more and also emphasises vocals, giving me more of an emotional connection to the singer.... but at the cost of that loss of depth perception.
This all sounds very "hi-fi reviewer" rather than "music lover" I know, but as I'm trying to tune the system to get the best out of it I tend to fall back into that more analytical mode. The biggest problem I have though is that I now don't know what I'm enjoying more, the laid-back or sat-forward listening positions!
One more question - for anyone who experimented with it, how does altering the vertical angle of the ESL panel affect the sound? Presumably this is done simply by screwing in or out the feet on the bottom to raise or lower the front or read of the cabinet? I've not tried that yet and I don't think I want to confuse myself any more just now until I've got this new conundrum worked out. I'm just curious to know if it's something worth experimenting with in future.
I have to say that it's great fun messing around with this stuff! Plus it keeps making me dig out albums I've not heard for ages which as to be a good thing.
P.S. I've just noticed something else. When I tilt my head downwards I hear an emphasis on the upper frequencies - bringing out additional details, which drop away again when I lift my head back up. Is this something weird with my ears?
So in anticipation of the arrival of my Primalunas in a couple of weeks, I have rearranged the lounge this week. I was always a bit concerned about the proximity of the rack and my TT wall shelf to the right hand speaker, and as there was simply no room whatsoever to accommodate the two big and hot chassis of the Dialogues, it all had to move. At the moment I don't have the TT set up as I need to get some help with re-mounting the shelf, which my dad is going to lend a hand with this weekend, so it's CD and streaming (from my own NAS) only. Oh, and as the Gato sold, I have pressed my trusty-friend--but-very-much-out-of-its-depth Pioneer A400 into use again. Poor thing, deserves an easier ride in its old age than driving a pair of reactive ESLs! Finally, for sh*ts and giggles I have acquired some new speaker cables courtesy of johns of this very parish, some Chord Epic Twin, shorter, beefier and rather less flexible than the Kimber 8PR it replaces!
After the rearrangements, I thought I'd have a little play around with the positioning of the Summits. I wasn't convinced they were in the right place or at the optimum angle and thought I'd have a bit of fun moving them around. To be truthful, it's the first "proper" move they have had since I got them home and installed them, so fair to say they had a decent crack at the whip in the old position.
I've brought them another 30cm into the room (away from the front wall) so he middle of the panel is now almost 2m from the wall (yes, I'm fortunate to have the luxury of doing that). I have also given them a far more pronounced toe-in, where before they were firing almost straight down the room. Overall, it's a far more nearfield setup than before so the normal listening position is now 3m from the panels, which are still about 1.6m apart, inner edge to inner edge. There's almost a metre behind my head to the rear wall.
So the first thing I noticed was, "where's the bloody bass gone?" Compared to the previous location (which I was listening to yesterday, so still with the A400 and the Chord cables), there was no oomph! The sound was anaemic. I've had the 50Hz control adjusted down to -3.75dB to get a more balanced overall bass, but now I've had to put the control back to flat, and back has come the bass, hurrah!
Second thing I've noticed in the lower registers is that there seems to be less unevenness, i.e. nulls and peaks. OK so it's early days and I may h=find over the next few days with more listening that I'm aware of them again, but the initial reaction was of a better bass response, so that repositioning seems to be of benefit.
What the move has highlighted though, and this is something I have never noticed before, is that if I lean forward in my seat, there is a significant increase in dynamics, especially noticeable with kick drum and snare. It also feels as though you have adjusted the mix and brought up the level of the drums compared to other instruments while flattening the sense of image depth. It's a most bizarre change and I'm at a loss to understand how that can be... but it's absolutely repeatable every time I lean forward and then back again. It's like the leading edge of the notes becomes clearer and more defined. Sitting back again makes the sound seem flaccid and a little ill-defined by comparison. In addition there is a perception of less room interaction, I suppose that's down to being even closer to the panels meaning less in the way of first reflections reaching my ears?
In the normal leant-back position the imaging is really good, there is a lot more perception of stage width and depth and the presentation is detached from the bounds of the speakers so it hangs in the air behind them, like my old QAs used to do. I'm really pleased to have got that back again because to me it's one of the things I enjoy the most about listening to music - the illusion of performers in a space, even if that's an artificial one. Thing is, leaning forward exaggerates that sense of music in the air even more and also emphasises vocals, giving me more of an emotional connection to the singer.... but at the cost of that loss of depth perception.
This all sounds very "hi-fi reviewer" rather than "music lover" I know, but as I'm trying to tune the system to get the best out of it I tend to fall back into that more analytical mode. The biggest problem I have though is that I now don't know what I'm enjoying more, the laid-back or sat-forward listening positions!
One more question - for anyone who experimented with it, how does altering the vertical angle of the ESL panel affect the sound? Presumably this is done simply by screwing in or out the feet on the bottom to raise or lower the front or read of the cabinet? I've not tried that yet and I don't think I want to confuse myself any more just now until I've got this new conundrum worked out. I'm just curious to know if it's something worth experimenting with in future.
I have to say that it's great fun messing around with this stuff! Plus it keeps making me dig out albums I've not heard for ages which as to be a good thing.
P.S. I've just noticed something else. When I tilt my head downwards I hear an emphasis on the upper frequencies - bringing out additional details, which drop away again when I lift my head back up. Is this something weird with my ears?
With my Martin Logans I found that tilting forward so that the speakers were more upright resulted in a more focussed “hifi“ sort of sound. Tilting back gave a more relaxed, natural sound which suited my taste better. The great thing about Logans is the degree to which they can be tuned to one’s taste.
The disadvantage is that they are best for a single listener bang on a line between the speakers. Measurement freaks claim that this indicates that they are a poor speaker but I disagree. I think it is a positive to be able tune the sound to one’s taste by altering position to back and side walls and adjusting tilt and toe in. It takes time and experimentation to optimise but once done they give staggeringly realistic sound.
The disadvantage is that they are best for a single listener bang on a line between the speakers. Measurement freaks claim that this indicates that they are a poor speaker but I disagree. I think it is a positive to be able tune the sound to one’s taste by altering position to back and side walls and adjusting tilt and toe in. It takes time and experimentation to optimise but once done they give staggeringly realistic sound.
Thanks guys. What I find interesting and also reassuring is how the MLs really cater to the "dif'rent strokes for dif'rent folks" ethos with their adjustability. Clearly the vertical angle makes a difference, as does the distance from them to listening position I suspect, so I shall have to play around and see what works best for my tastes. I know that there's a perfect balance to be had for me as I've already heard them perform so well and have a good idea what they're capable of.
Single-listener position is fine to be honest as the only person who really does any "serious" listening is me. My room really isn't a suitable shape or layout to host a bake-off ("one's company and two's a crowd") and my other half isn't bothered as long as they go loud enough and have enough bass, which isn't exactly a problem.... I find that even off-axis they sound great, although as you'd expect the soundstage collapses once you get to the point of sitting almost perpendicular to either left or right speaker. I have noticed that HF reproduction can vary quite wildly (beaming??) over a very small range of movement left to right, but in truth I've heard the same with every pair of speakers I've had in this room so although I expect the MLs are partly responsible, I also think the room has a lot to answer for in this respect. I love big patio doors for the light they let in (and the view of the garden) but they're a bugger for audio!
Single-listener position is fine to be honest as the only person who really does any "serious" listening is me. My room really isn't a suitable shape or layout to host a bake-off ("one's company and two's a crowd") and my other half isn't bothered as long as they go loud enough and have enough bass, which isn't exactly a problem.... I find that even off-axis they sound great, although as you'd expect the soundstage collapses once you get to the point of sitting almost perpendicular to either left or right speaker. I have noticed that HF reproduction can vary quite wildly (beaming??) over a very small range of movement left to right, but in truth I've heard the same with every pair of speakers I've had in this room so although I expect the MLs are partly responsible, I also think the room has a lot to answer for in this respect. I love big patio doors for the light they let in (and the view of the garden) but they're a bugger for audio!
Hi Jules.
Glad you are having fun with speaker positioning and support!
Given the dimensions of your room (10.5' wide and 21' long) you are probably having to contend with some serious peaks and troughs! Your experience with leaning forward in your seat to aid the perception of increased dynamics and a loss of bass impact when moving the ML's along the length of the room, all remind me of the battle I had with trying to achieve a good and uniform sound from my system in my last house (room was 11' wide and 24' long). The judicious application of tube traps and experimenting with positioning, managed to achieve something resembling a listenable sound, but it took the move to my current home (room size 18.5' wide, 22' long) to really experience what my significant investment in hifi was capable of!
BTW, current UK MRSP of a Conrad Johnson GAT 2 line stage, is £28995!
My mint condition GAT 2 is now surplus to requirements, so I'll stick it to one side, for when you're ready to pull the trigger!
Glad you are having fun with speaker positioning and support!
Given the dimensions of your room (10.5' wide and 21' long) you are probably having to contend with some serious peaks and troughs! Your experience with leaning forward in your seat to aid the perception of increased dynamics and a loss of bass impact when moving the ML's along the length of the room, all remind me of the battle I had with trying to achieve a good and uniform sound from my system in my last house (room was 11' wide and 24' long). The judicious application of tube traps and experimenting with positioning, managed to achieve something resembling a listenable sound, but it took the move to my current home (room size 18.5' wide, 22' long) to really experience what my significant investment in hifi was capable of!
BTW, current UK MRSP of a Conrad Johnson GAT 2 line stage, is £28995!
My mint condition GAT 2 is now surplus to requirements, so I'll stick it to one side, for when you're ready to pull the trigger!
Don't hold your breath waiting for me to stump up the funds! Ha haHi Jules.
Glad you are having fun with speaker positioning and support!
Given the dimensions of your room (10.5' wide and 21' long) you are probably having to contend with some serious peaks and troughs! Your experience with leaning forward in your seat to aid the perception of increased dynamics and a loss of bass impact when moving the ML's along the length of the room, all remind me of the battle I had with trying to achieve a good and uniform sound from my system in my last house (room was 11' wide and 24' long). The judicious application of tube traps and experimenting with positioning, managed to achieve something resembling a listenable sound, but it took the move to my current home (room size 18.5' wide, 22' long) to really experience what my significant investment in hifi was capable of!
BTW, current UK MRSP of a Conrad Johnson GAT 2 line stage, is £28995!
My mint condition GAT 2 is now surplus to requirements, so I'll stick it to one side, for when you're ready to pull the trigger!
Unevenness in the lower registers is definitely an issue I need to contend with, although I observe that some improvement has occurred since bringing the speakers forward. I need to do another set of REW measurements to understand the extent, although you can hear easily enough where some of the problems are. My feeling is that the previous position was enough to excite certain room modes enough that I needed to reduce the 50Hz control to take some of the excess away, and the relocation rebalanced things, meaning that the previously-applied bass cut was too much.
Bass traps could potentially be part of the solution provided I can visually integrate them into the room - this is a lounge and not a dedicated listening room, so I'm conscious of the way things look (and the space they occupy).
With my Logan Stats (Aerius i, Ascent i and Electromotion) I always used some form of DSP to control bass peaks, starting with Meridian G68 room correction, manual tweaking in JRiver before ending up with a miniDSP with Dirac. The latter, particularly took the Logans up a significant level. With my current speakers I am using a sub to smooth out the bass response by running it out of phase with the main bass peak. Perhaps, more by luck than judgement it is working extremely well and without the very small reduction in quality that comes from running the signal through the miniDSP.
The Ascents were my favourite of the three but I bought them used and over time the high frequency performance declined. I did try the shower trick which if anything made them worse. The electromotions (first version) worked very well in my previous house in a 15x10ft heavily damped room but I couldn’t make them work well in my current house with a 23x12ft much livelier room.
I found that because of the way the speaker interacts with the room I needed to consider speaker and room together much more than many other speakers. Logans have the potential to sound worse than many other speakers but get the positioning and room right and they can sound vastly superior to all but the finest box speakers. All of which may explain the wide range of opinion of Martin Logans not to mention the supposedly poor results when Toole bunged them in his speaker shuffleometer!
The Ascents were my favourite of the three but I bought them used and over time the high frequency performance declined. I did try the shower trick which if anything made them worse. The electromotions (first version) worked very well in my previous house in a 15x10ft heavily damped room but I couldn’t make them work well in my current house with a 23x12ft much livelier room.
I found that because of the way the speaker interacts with the room I needed to consider speaker and room together much more than many other speakers. Logans have the potential to sound worse than many other speakers but get the positioning and room right and they can sound vastly superior to all but the finest box speakers. All of which may explain the wide range of opinion of Martin Logans not to mention the supposedly poor results when Toole bunged them in his speaker shuffleometer!
My own ML journey really begins and ends with the full range CLS2z.
I could never get on with the far more numerous hybrid models. So I can't help with the current discussion.
I owned a pair of CLS2z twice, it's very unusual for me to return to an item of hifi and stick with it for a while.
I only seem to have one extant photo, that taken when I was having a bit of a speaker shootout.
The Amphion Xenons stood no chance.
The ML CLS2z's undoubted charms finally met their match with the rather remarkable Leema Xavier. Quite astonishing for a box speaker.
I could never get on with the far more numerous hybrid models. So I can't help with the current discussion.
I owned a pair of CLS2z twice, it's very unusual for me to return to an item of hifi and stick with it for a while.
I only seem to have one extant photo, that taken when I was having a bit of a speaker shootout.
The Amphion Xenons stood no chance.
The ML CLS2z's undoubted charms finally met their match with the rather remarkable Leema Xavier. Quite astonishing for a box speaker.
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