Martin Logan

[Jules_S]

Cheers John. At the moment the panel vertical centres are 60cm from the side wall (should probably have explained this better earlier, when I said 75cm from the side wall I meant the inner edge of the panel). I don't think I can move them any further apart or they will be too close to the side walls.

I don't currently have anything like that much toe-in, but I will definitely give it a try to see how the imaging / focus alters. I know the bass levels will need to go down from the current (flat) settings and I'll start with similar settings to yours - I suspect I might need to take the 50Hz down more than the 25Hz same as you, but I'll wait a bit to alter them. I don't want to rush into too many changes or I think I will end up confusing myself (doesn't take much! ha ha)

Currently I am thoroughly enjoying the Summits even in a rough & ready setup, they just reward so much with their presentation. It's really quite different to what I've been used to, no surprise, and I can't yet articulate precisely what I am hearing, but I'm sure I will soon be able to put it into words. I know they're not everyone's cup of tea but they have such musicality - I am having more and more "goosebump" moments when I listen, discovering more details and texture even in music I thought I knew well. I thought my C500's were great at pulling out more detail, and I don't want to trash their reputation because they truly are a great speaker, but the Summit's character and presentation is just on another level altogether. Probably ought to be, given the price differential, even considering the difference in age. (mental note, must check the serial numbers with ML to see how old they actually are)

I am aware that my front ends will need some upgrading, but then I kind of intended / expected that prior to purchase. What's important right now is that I can live with what I have and plan the next steps without rushing into things. It's definitely going to be a new cartridge for the analogue front end however, and probably some mods to the phono stage too, while the digital side of things might get replaced altogether. I must also get some new mains cables for the speakers, mainly because the positioning of the nearest sockets is awkward and I want to plug them in elsewhere (and I do unplug them each night after use). I think I'm going to try the Puritan ones - I am not expecting any perceivable changes in sound but I'm just looking for something of the right length and a decent quality.

Right, back to the music, gents! More soon

 

[Bigman80]

Solid floor? Ha! I wish!! It's basically a wooden trampoline, quite awful. The plan for next year's DIY is to completely rip up and replace it with a far more rigid (and insulated) solution, one that doesn't vibrate with every footstep.
I built my own DIY version of isolation platforms for my Q Acoustics speakers and found they definitely benefitted the bass definition as well as making some improvement to the image focus. Unfortunately the platforms are too small to be re-used for the Summits, so I'll have to make some new ones, but to begin with my intention is to do exactly what you suggested, just put them on something plain that will make it easier to move them around for placement. I can put all the spiky, bouncy stuff on afterwards [emoji16] Still can't get my head around how a sprung platform can improve things, but I know it works.
Here are the ones I made earlier:
View attachment 100352


Two granite tiles sandwiching a layer of acoustic isolation sheet, a set of Nobsound spring isolators, then the tile sandwich repeated. Bottom pair on adjustable spikes to allow for levelling and stability (in addition to being bouncy my floor is also not level), top pair sporting some teeny cups for the speaker's feet to sit in.

I'm using Townshend bars under my Q Acoustics on a wooden trampoline floor. Super effective and worth every penny.

Nice that you found a cheaper solution

Sent from my KB2003 using Tapatalk

 

[callen24returns]

Solid floor? Ha! I wish!! It's basically a wooden trampoline, quite awful. The plan for next year's DIY is to completely rip up and replace it with a far more rigid (and insulated) solution, one that doesn't vibrate with every footstep.

I built my own DIY version of isolation platforms for my Q Acoustics speakers and found they definitely benefitted the bass definition as well as making some improvement to the image focus. Unfortunately the platforms are too small to be re-used for the Summits, so I'll have to make some new ones, but to begin with my intention is to do exactly what you suggested, just put them on something plain that will make it easier to move them around for placement. I can put all the spiky, bouncy stuff on afterwards  Still can't get my head around how a sprung platform can improve things, but I know it works.

Here are the ones I made earlier:

View attachment 100352





Two granite tiles sandwiching a layer of acoustic isolation sheet, a set of Nobsound spring isolators, then the tile sandwich repeated. Bottom pair on adjustable spikes to allow for levelling and stability (in addition to being bouncy my floor is also not level), top pair sporting some teeny cups for the speaker's feet to sit in.

Will you be looking to move your platforms onto someone else?

 

[Jules_S]

I'm using Townshend bars under my Q Acoustics on a wooden trampoline floor. Super effective and worth every penny.

Nice that you found a cheaper solution

Sent from my KB2003 using Tapatalk
 

Cheers Oliver. My home-grown platforms probably don't perform as well as the Townshends but they did only cost me about £230 in materials, and a couple of hours of assembly. Plus I was pleased with the aesthetics which I thought worked well with my gloss white / oak C500s. Agreed that they really do benefit from the isolation, and I intend to try the same experiment with the MLs once I am happy with the placement.

 

[Jules_S]

Will you be looking to move your platforms onto someone else?

Not sure to be honest. Although they don't fit the dimensions of the Summits, I notice that the spikes I used are out of stock at the moment on Amazon, and the Nobsound feet seem to be in short supply, so I might end up cannibalising what I have to re-use them. Unless of course I find an alternative, in which case yes I'll either offer them to the buyer of the speakers (which will also be for sale soon) or if they don't want them, then I'll make them available more generally

 

[hifinutt]

They look nice but I doubt they would take the weight of summits and they are a bit lopsided in weight so that would affect the angle of the panel affecting  sound . 

Even with my bespoke summit townshend Stella specially made to accommodate the downward driver it was not always easy to balance them 

 

[Jules_S]

They look nice but I doubt they would take the weight of summits and they are a bit lopsided in weight so that would affect the angle of the panel affecting  sound . 

Even with my bespoke summit townshend Stella specially made to accommodate the downward driver it was not always easy to balance them 

Thanks Phil, that's a useful and interesting observation. I hadn't considered the weight distribution, just the overall weight, which felt substantially more than my Concept 500s even though in fact they are about 7kg ea lighter! So I know they would cope with the overall load, but not sure about the positioning. Might have to think  carefully about that and see what options might do the job. I'm keen to get them up on some sort of isolation having proved it works with conventional cone loudspeakers, so I'd like to try the same with these to see if there's the same sort of improvements. That's for later though, for now I need to concentrate on getting the basics right. Walk before run 

 

[hifinutt]

the ethos are good too . a  pair around s/h if anyone interested 

 

[Jules_S]

Without wishing to risk taking the shine off my new acquisitions, I would be interested to hear from ex-owners of MLs, whatever the model, on why they decided to replace them.

• Was it a circumstantial thing (e.g. moving house to a smaller room, or SWMBO gave them their marching-orders )?
  
• Was it an issue with the speakers themselves, e.g. longer-term ownership threw up something that you didn't like about their sound or the way they presented the music?
  
• Was it a synergy issue with the rest of your system? If so, what equipment were you using and what issues did you find?
  
• Was it environmental, i.e. you had issues with the room in which they were placed? What was the shape and what were the room dimensions? How was it furnished?
  
• Or was it something else altogether? Hopefully there's not been any catastrophic failures!
  

I'd like to use the answers as learning so I might watch out for / mitigate against problems from the outset. It's still "so far, so sweet" here at the moment though!

P.S. these are easily the most expensive speakers I've ever owned by some considerable margin (based on new RRP) so I am keen to get the most out of them

 

[Camverton]

I moved house and found the Logan’s I was using didn’t suit my main listening room, although I still use a pair from time to time in other rooms. I did consider a larger pair of Logan’s but they get very pricy. The main reason for moving on, however, was discovering that omnis did everything that I enjoyed the Logan’s for (resolution, spaciousness, alive sound) but without the narrow listening position and with a more holographic aural image of a performer. The only snag is that need to be further from the side walls and wall behind them, and yes, omnis are also quite pricy! 

I do prefer the look of Martin Logan’s though, both to my current German Physiks and also the latest Quads which just look like a solid black slab in the room; the see through aspect of the Logan panels makes them appear less domineering in the room.

 

[hifinutt]

yes my mrs gave them marching orders ... she said they overpowered the room so they had to go    if i didnt have fairly big speakers in my loft i would probably get another pair but they are not the easiest to get upstairs in a tight space  

 

[Jules_S]

Useful feedback, chaps, thank you. I did hear a pair of MBL 101's at a show once (from memory I think it was Heathrow) and they were extraordinary, but WAAAAAAAAAYYYYY out of my league! If I could afford them I doubt I'd be living where I do...

Interestingly, at the moment I'm not finding the listening position much of an issue as I found something very similar with my (now for sale) Q Acoustics. I think it might have something to do with my room because it seems that whatever speakers I've had in this space (2 pairs of Q's, Wilson Benesch Curve, Castle Harlechs & Conways) I've always had to sit quite still in a very defined position (c. 1-2 inch deviation from central) to get the best, so I suspect the odd L-shape and the patio door glass is doing something with the acoustics. I've always done a "good enough" job with setup and positioning but with these I will spend some serious time to get it right, and enlist some help to do so.

 

[CnoEvil]

Rather than disrupt your Gato Selling Thread, I'm posting here.....I was glad to see your dog hadn't done something daft again (which was my first thought).

What Amp are you now looking at....have you heard it with the MLs?

How did the QA compare with the MLs? Musical engagement is a subtle beast, especially if it's nearly there, but not quite - it can take a while to find that out....especially if the new speakers inject excitement and drama into the music.

What changed over time in your perception of the Gato/ML partnership?

Gato + Warmer Speakers just works IMO

If you had started with the MLs and asked for an Amp recommendation, I'm not sure the Gato 250S would have been my first choice. I would expect it to be a good combination, but not an great one.

I'm a believer in pairing Neutral Speskers, with a Warmer Amp - and vica versa.

IMO. The Gato/Concept 500 takes some beating......so great care and expense may be required to substantially better it.

 

[Jules_S]

Thankfully yes, Roxy is still in one piece and not costing me another fortune!

I think that obviously there are some substantial differences between the Concept 500s and Summits. I should say "from the off" that I still have huge love for the QAs - they are a remarkable speaker. Easy to live with, essentially vice-free, smooth without being dull, vibrant when needed without being in-your-face, they are a well-judged package and I love(d) them. The Summits are still a big leap up though IMO, showing up the QAs "sins of omission". Bass is substantially more authoritative and refined, IMO thanks to the combination of the far larger bass drivers with dedicated amplification, and the sealed enclosure that avoids the slightly indistinct quality of a port. Vocals have more tangibility to them, the subtle inflections (even with my very modest sources) are more obvious. It's an ESL thing I suppose, the difference in the style of presentation.

When I went to collect the Summits I heard them with the seller's own system, which admittedly was a few orders of magnitude greater than my own! I don't know the retail price of Conrad Johnson GAT pre-amp and the matching power amp but I suspect it's in the region of £30-40k? Even with a fairly middling Marantz CDP the resulting music was astonishing, so I know that the MLs are capable of raising their game to a level that the QAs couldn't achieve (even if the latter in isolation were excellent at delivering scale and a huge stereo image). At home, imaging is the one thing that I feel the QAs did better in my room than the MLs do at present. I have lost some of the sharp focus and the illusion of a massive front-to-back depth. That is no doubt mainly down to the fact that I have not yet got them properly positioned and "dialled-in" to the room, and I have not yet started handling the rear radiation of sound that is so much a characteristic of the ESL dipole radiation pattern. I have no doubt that once I have got this licked they will be an improvement on the QAs, although I doubt I'll be able to quite recreate what I heard at the vendor's, as I shall never be in the position of buying amps at that level. Plus my room is pokey by comparison!

Prior to the purchase I did spend a day with John (Lurch) who had also just bought a pair of Summits. I took my Gato along to try the combination out and I really enjoyed it. I thought it was a really enjoyable listen, not particularly lacking in any one area, and this gave me the confidence to go ahead. But as we all know, even a decent listening session is no match for long-term, and I have recently begun to feel that the combination just isn't working quite as well as Gato / QA. Some of the "magic" is missing - perhaps the MLs are highlighting deficiencies in the amp, I'm not sure. I'm finding the top end is a bit too "obvious" and with the wrong recordings, "splashy" and there's a tendency to emphasise sibilance. Other than that there's no other tonal balance issues, and within the limitations of the setup and room I don't think there's too much wrong with the imaging that I can't get right with time and patience. But I find my attention wandering when I'm listening, it's not enthralling me the way it should.

I know that with a relatively budget cartridge and a very budget digital front end I am not giving the rest of the system the best material to work with. But as I said earlier, I know that even with just a midrange Marantz CDP these speakers are capable of greatness, and I am working on improving the sources (Arcam D33 heading back this way soon to lift the digital side of things, and I have a loaner cartridge to try out on the Voyd). I am hopeful that these will help significantly, but my gut still tells me that even with a better source, I'm not going to get that "magic" back. That comes from the pairing of amp and speakers. And so the new amps.

I have, rashly perhaps, pulled the trigger on a Primaluna Dialogue pre and Dialogue HP power. I've had a bit of an itch to try these out for a while, and again "gut feel" tells me that the right valve amps should work really well with the MLs. Perhaps it's the subconscious knowledge that the CJs worked so well with them, and that Audio Research amps are often paired with MLs. I like the flexibility that the Primalunas offer with mode of operation - switchable between triode and ultralinear on the fly, and the choice of different valves that can be accommodated easily with the flick of a switch and the clever autobiasing. That should give me the chance to play with fine-tuning them to suit, assuming that when I get them connected up that the "bones" are right. If I feel they will benefit from it I can always get a second power amp and run them bridged.

Have I been hasty? Most probably. But sometimes you have to go with your heart and your instincts rather than your head and a spec sheet. Plus it's fun to try things out! If I've made a big mistake then there will be a pair of Primalunas up for sale on the Wam in a few months! I'm going to go out on a limb though and say I expect that, unless I get lucky and can find the funds for some serious American valve muscle (and finesse) that I am going to be living with these amps for a long time. And sod the electricity bill! Moving from 35w idle to around 520w is going to make a difference for sure, but with my current lifestyle the system is rarely on for more than a couple of hours a day so not the crushing difference one might imagine. Plus I never leave things turned on or in standby when not in use.

I'll update the thread later this month once the new arrivals have had time to settle in a little. Keep fingers crossed....

 

[CnoEvil]

@Jules_S FWIW. I would be surprised if that Amp doesn't give you what you're missing.

Looking forward to your thoughts when it arrives.

 

[Technomad]

Solid floor? Ha! I wish!! It's basically a wooden trampoline, quite awful. The plan for next year's DIY is to completely rip up and replace it with a far more rigid (and insulated) solution, one that doesn't vibrate with every footstep.

I built my own DIY version of isolation platforms for my Q Acoustics speakers and found they definitely benefitted the bass definition as well as making some improvement to the image focus. Unfortunately the platforms are too small to be re-used for the Summits, so I'll have to make some new ones, but to begin with my intention is to do exactly what you suggested, just put them on something plain that will make it easier to move them around for placement. I can put all the spiky, bouncy stuff on afterwards Still can't get my head around how a sprung platform can improve things, but I know it works.

Here are the ones I made earlier:







Two granite tiles sandwiching a layer of acoustic isolation sheet, a set of Nobsound spring isolators, then the tile sandwich repeated. Bottom pair on adjustable spikes to allow for levelling and stability (in addition to being bouncy my floor is also not level), top pair sporting some teeny cups for the speaker's feet to sit in.

Same here - 300-year-old house with a wooden floor with a half metre of reverberant space beneath. Best upgrade I’ve made in ages (after trading my Aerius is for Spires) has been a set of Isoacoustic Gaia isolation feet - tames the bass nicely, makes the whole thing more musical and just very strongly recommended. Before getting those, I’d been thinking of a very similar slab sandwich approach, but the Gaia’s are less obtrusive, easier to move around and just seem to work very well indeed.

 

[Jules_S]

Same here - 300-year-old house with a wooden floor with a half metre of reverberant space beneath. Best upgrade I’ve made in ages (after trading my Aerius is for Spires) has been a set of Isoacoustic Gaia isolation feet - tames the bass nicely, makes the whole thing more musical and just very strongly recommended. Before getting those, I’d been thinking of a very similar slab sandwich approach, but the Gaia’s are less obtrusive, easier to move around and just seem to work very well indeed.

Gaias are very much on the cards for me too. Also at some point I still intend on carrying out my floor replacement plan - will look to add support and (if necessary) reinforcement to the existing joists, then install a far thicker and more rigid floor with some thermal insulation beneath.

 

[Jules_S]

@Jules_S FWIW. I would be surprised if that Amp doesn't give you what you're missing.

Looking forward to your thoughts when it arrives.

I shall pass on my thoughts once I have some to share!

 

[hifinutt]

At home, imaging is the one thing that I feel the QAs did better in my room than the MLs do at present. I have lost some of the sharp focus and the illusion of a massive front-to-back depth. That is no doubt mainly down to the fact that I have not yet got them properly positioned and "dialled-in" to the room, and I have not yet started handling the rear radiation of sound that is so much a characteristic of the ESL dipole radiation pattern. I have no doubt that once I have got this licked they will be an improvement on the QAs, although I doubt I'll be able to quite recreate what I heard at the vendor's, as I shall never be in the position of buying amps at that level. Plus my room is pokey by comparison!

once you have them positioned correctly [ i used a torch to get it right ] they will be extraordinary in imaging

 

[hifinutt]

Plus I never leave things turned on or in standby when not in use. presumably you leave the logans plugged in 24/7 . they should be left like this as take an age to get back up to speed if not

Will my electric bill go 'sky high' by leaving my electrostatic speakers plugged in all the time?​

Updated: Aug 24 2018

No. The electrostatic portion of MartinLogan speakers will only draw a few watts (please refer to the specs for your model). There is circuitry to turn off the static charge when not in use; however, actual consumption will remain close to the same. The primary purpose of the sensing circuitry is to prevent dust collection on the electrostatic element. Models with powered woofers systems draw more power duing use, but when not in use will turn off the amplifiers to reduce power consumption. Upon sensing a signal it will take a brief moment for the woofer amplifiers to power up.

 

[Jules_S]

They still use less electricity when unplugged than when in standby.... All the so-called "vampire" consumer electronics left on standby can add up to a significant consumption for no benefit at all. Plus I vacuum my panels fairly frequently to keep them dust-free

I followed ML's guide to setup, including the torch test. That's ended up with my speakers having virtually no toe-in at all. To be honest I'm not sure it's giving the best results in my room, so I am going to experiment just as I would with any other speaker. It's fun and free after all, so why not? And by trying some radically different positions (with no expectation that any will actually be good) I should get to understand them and the room interactions a lot better. I still think a lot of the lost focus is down to the rearward radiation reflecting from the front wall interfering with the forward radiation and I have plans to deal with some of that. The current performance isn't bad, but I've heard them do better