Yes, I feel much the same about the 13th. 14 is pretty grim as well; Britten quoted the 4th movement, “The Suicide”, in his opera Death in Venice using it for the strawberry seller.
Shostakovich
- Thread starter purplepleaser
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So I just listened to the 15th, by Maxim Shosti & Prague Symphony Orchestra as recommended by @Camverton. Overall I enjoyed it, and it was a refreshing change coming from listening to a number of RVW's symphonies in a row. I wrote down some notes but then realised they said pretty much what Alan did (well without reference to the quotations as I haven't got a clue about that 
) - in terms of the flow from exuberant 'toyshop' vibe to sombreness etc. The Lone Ranger theme in the 1st movement did jarr a bit for me - film association aside, it still seemed a little out of place and silly.
I can see why @JANDL100 doesn't like it (although I feel that saying it "bewilders and repels" you is quite strong - I've definitely heard worse, and from Shosti himself!) but I quite liked the juxtaposition of emotions as Malcolm pointed out. Overall though, although I enjoyed it, I prefer other of his symphonies and don't feel the need to re-listen in a hurry.
) - in terms of the flow from exuberant 'toyshop' vibe to sombreness etc. The Lone Ranger theme in the 1st movement did jarr a bit for me - film association aside, it still seemed a little out of place and silly.I can see why @JANDL100 doesn't like it (although I feel that saying it "bewilders and repels" you is quite strong - I've definitely heard worse, and from Shosti himself!) but I quite liked the juxtaposition of emotions as Malcolm pointed out. Overall though, although I enjoyed it, I prefer other of his symphonies and don't feel the need to re-listen in a hurry.
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If a recording was made without the Lone Ranger theme I'd be able to listen without cringeing in embarrassment. That really is a major turnoff. Actually, it simply rules it out for me.
I still cling to the idea, without any evidence whatsoever, that he put it in solely to please his son, the very young at the time Maxim.
I still cling to the idea, without any evidence whatsoever, that he put it in solely to please his son, the very young at the time Maxim.
His final symphony was the 10th. 
They don't come stronger than that.
11 and 12 can be reclassified as political propaganda.
13 and 14 are song cycles.
15 was an embarrassing brain fart that shouldn't have been published.
They don't come stronger than that.
11 and 12 can be reclassified as political propaganda.
13 and 14 are song cycles.
15 was an embarrassing brain fart that shouldn't have been published.
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I try get into Shostakovich Symphonies but even for me its heavy going... (and I love Wagner!) However his other works, like the Jazz Suite, Lost in Moscow etc..... Is absolutely brilliant. His Waltz in Jazz Suite No2 is the best waltz for me, because it contains so many emotions known to humans. First time I came across it was in the film 'Eyes Wide Shut' last film made by Stanley Kubrick.
Hmm, this was gentle and pleasant though I have to say a little bland, rising to a bit of what felt to me like silly sprightliness in the Largo movement (though I can see how the earlier movements could be spoiled as you indicated). And I'm shocked you could tolerate that third movement with its touches of William Tell overture
. I preferred the Sinfonietta that came after on that recording - much more interesting as well as being quite dark and brooding. The 4th and 5th movements in particular drew it to a soft, beautiful, melancholy close. Really enjoyed it.
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I listened to this back to back with @Camverton's Haitink/CSO recommendation. With such a long symphony and so much going on, it's hard to be particular in my comparison of the two, but my overall initial impression is that although the Boreyko had better SQ (Haitink sounded a little thin/weedy in comparison), I preferred Haitink's performance. I can't really be more specific at the moment as to why - I'll probably have to go back to Boreyko again - especially as it was my first hearing of the piece and there's a lot to take in, which could have given an unfair advantage to Haitink, but Haitink made the piece feel a bit more coherent to me. Maybe some of it was down to it being my second listen of the piece, so I'll re-listen to Boreyko when I have time.
Edit: I saw a comment in a review of Boreyko that, 'The problems occur in the long stretches of quiet music, where Boreyko reveals an unfortunate tendency to slow down and let tension drain away.' - I think that could be it - Haitink somehow kept the quieter parts 'tied' to the rest better.
Interestingly, reviews for Boreyko seem quite split, with the likes of Gramophone and Classicstoday saying it's 'good not great' yet Amazon reviews more aligned with @JANDL100's enthusiasm.
As for the piece, well... lots to take in! Lots going on in the first movement - I found parts of it very exciting and engaging and then other parts seemed to wallow and meander a bit. The second was just a bit weird. The final movement again seemed to have lots of ideas (and the kitchen sink) thrown in - though I very much liked the dark ending. I largely agree with Jerry's initial assessment that it was chaotic. Maybe I just need to listen to it a few more times to start to make sense of it. Overall though, I'd say the symphony is interesting rather than enjoyable. I felt like I was being taken on a tour of different soundscapes and ideas, many of which were nice, but there wasn't any real cohesion.
Edit here's a review of a load more versions (his favourite is Valery Gergiev/Mariinsky Theatre Orchestra if anyone's heard that):https://www.psaudio.com/copper/article/a-survey-of-recordings-of-shostakovich-symphony-no-4/
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Interesting first impressions! I suspect you're doing your thing of too much, too quick, Josh.
It probably took me over half a dozen listens of the 4th over a couple of years to get to grips with it. I'm not suggesting your views aren't valid, or that you need 2 years, but I suspect your views might change with increased familiarity with the music.
Maybe Boreyko's 4th just hit it lucky for me, and I'd have had my "ah, so that's what it's about!" moment with Haitink or Gergiev if they had happened to be the one that was played when my brain finally managed to get itself together with the music. I'll try Haitink again. Not sure Gergiev has had any play time with me, so maybe I'll give that a go. Boreyko's sound quality is certainly a big plus for me. A coarse or over enthusiastic treble can get very wearing in music like the 4th!
Perhaps the difference between the magazine and Amazon buyer reviews is partly that reviewers are under time pressure to get on to the next review, and more immediate responses are the ones that make it into press, while Amazon listeners have more time to form impressions? I can certainly relate to Boreyko being more relaxed in the less intense parts, but in an hour long work of huge intensity in parts, the relaxation is a welcome feature for me. Or maybe not. I'll have some more listens to alternatives.
As for the 6th, I'm a bit shocked! I don't hear it the same way as you do at all. It's one of my favourite Shostakovich works! It's somehow different to the rest of the symphonies to my ear, I think there's a parallel with Sibelius 6th which also is similarly unique in his output and is my favourite Sibelius symphony. Neither of them blaze away at any point, have massive climaxes or are emotionally searing, but somehow they both get under my skin in their understated way and have a very deep affect on me. I think both 6ths took quite a while for me to appreciate.
It probably took me over half a dozen listens of the 4th over a couple of years to get to grips with it. I'm not suggesting your views aren't valid, or that you need 2 years, but I suspect your views might change with increased familiarity with the music.
Maybe Boreyko's 4th just hit it lucky for me, and I'd have had my "ah, so that's what it's about!" moment with Haitink or Gergiev if they had happened to be the one that was played when my brain finally managed to get itself together with the music. I'll try Haitink again. Not sure Gergiev has had any play time with me, so maybe I'll give that a go. Boreyko's sound quality is certainly a big plus for me. A coarse or over enthusiastic treble can get very wearing in music like the 4th!
Perhaps the difference between the magazine and Amazon buyer reviews is partly that reviewers are under time pressure to get on to the next review, and more immediate responses are the ones that make it into press, while Amazon listeners have more time to form impressions? I can certainly relate to Boreyko being more relaxed in the less intense parts, but in an hour long work of huge intensity in parts, the relaxation is a welcome feature for me. Or maybe not. I'll have some more listens to alternatives.
As for the 6th, I'm a bit shocked! I don't hear it the same way as you do at all. It's one of my favourite Shostakovich works! It's somehow different to the rest of the symphonies to my ear, I think there's a parallel with Sibelius 6th which also is similarly unique in his output and is my favourite Sibelius symphony. Neither of them blaze away at any point, have massive climaxes or are emotionally searing, but somehow they both get under my skin in their understated way and have a very deep affect on me. I think both 6ths took quite a while for me to appreciate.
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Oh lordy, I agree with everything Jerry has said above!
I think Shostakovich 4 is his most difficult symphony to get to grips with. At first it just seems one noisy chaotic onslaught after another. It takes time, maybe years, to get the hang of it and make sense of it all. I don’t think it can ever be an enjoyable listen so much as a blistering and disturbing statement. I think that is true of much of Shostakovich away from his propaganda pieces or a Soviet artists reply to just criticism. In some ways it does beg the question as to why anyone would want to listen to it but I find the most rewarding art is rarely the predictable tune or charming figurative painting. It is why I prefer abstract art and like “modern classical” music. It is challenge which forces us to be more than a passive onlooker, albeit we can end up being puzzled for a while, and often disturbed.
If Bach seems to encapsulate the natural order of everything into music, and Beethoven searches both within and beyond the human condition to present us with ideas that our imaginations couldn’t reach unaided, then Shostakovich holds a mirror up to ourselves in which we can see see a disturbing kaleidoscope of ourselves with flashes of colour, terror, despair and exuberance. As with any truthful introspection not always a pretty sight!
Funny enough I listened to Sibelius 6 just the other night in Karajan’s performance. He seems to capture its mercurial, other worldly qualities rather well to my ears. As to Shostakovich 6 I love the contrast between the first and last two movements. I remember well hearing Previn conduct this at the Festival Hall in the early seventies. The first movement full of unease, never quite sure if one is being observed from the shadows, before dancing through the last two movements his head bobbing up and down like a beetle. A magnificent performance, probably with the LSO. Did he ever record it I wonder?
I think Shostakovich 4 is his most difficult symphony to get to grips with. At first it just seems one noisy chaotic onslaught after another. It takes time, maybe years, to get the hang of it and make sense of it all. I don’t think it can ever be an enjoyable listen so much as a blistering and disturbing statement. I think that is true of much of Shostakovich away from his propaganda pieces or a Soviet artists reply to just criticism. In some ways it does beg the question as to why anyone would want to listen to it but I find the most rewarding art is rarely the predictable tune or charming figurative painting. It is why I prefer abstract art and like “modern classical” music. It is challenge which forces us to be more than a passive onlooker, albeit we can end up being puzzled for a while, and often disturbed.
If Bach seems to encapsulate the natural order of everything into music, and Beethoven searches both within and beyond the human condition to present us with ideas that our imaginations couldn’t reach unaided, then Shostakovich holds a mirror up to ourselves in which we can see see a disturbing kaleidoscope of ourselves with flashes of colour, terror, despair and exuberance. As with any truthful introspection not always a pretty sight!
Funny enough I listened to Sibelius 6 just the other night in Karajan’s performance. He seems to capture its mercurial, other worldly qualities rather well to my ears. As to Shostakovich 6 I love the contrast between the first and last two movements. I remember well hearing Previn conduct this at the Festival Hall in the early seventies. The first movement full of unease, never quite sure if one is being observed from the shadows, before dancing through the last two movements his head bobbing up and down like a beetle. A magnificent performance, probably with the LSO. Did he ever record it I wonder?
Yes, as you probably know it's a transcription of the 8th string quartet. The quartet not being a sensible thing to listen to if you're anywhere near sharp instruments or cliff edges.
The Sinfonietta has some of the emotional trauma toned down quite a bit, although it's still dramatic in places. A much easier listen which these days tbh I prefer!
So yes, "really nice" is a good way of putting it. It's classic Shostakovich and great to listen to.
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Just as a random thought, I've equated the 6th symphonies of Shostakovich and Sibelius as being broadly similar in their approach and dissimilarity to other symphonies in their respective canons.
I also think the same about the 4th symphonies of Shostakovich and Vaughan Williams. Big, loud, chaotic. Once again unique among their symphonies.
iirc, RVW said of his 4th something along the lines of "I'm not sure if I like it, but it is what I meant".
I also think the same about the 4th symphonies of Shostakovich and Vaughan Williams. Big, loud, chaotic. Once again unique among their symphonies.
iirc, RVW said of his 4th something along the lines of "I'm not sure if I like it, but it is what I meant".
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Just listening again now to Paavo's Shosty 6. Kerrrr-ist!!!! Totally bowled over by the 1st movement. Searingly intense.
Are you sure you were listening to the right piece, Josh?
...... Have now finished listening to it. What a MAGNIFICENT symphony. No hint of the Lone Ranger to my ears.
You were defo listening to the wrong piece of music, Josh!
Are you sure you were listening to the right piece, Josh?
...... Have now finished listening to it. What a MAGNIFICENT symphony. No hint of the Lone Ranger to my ears.
You were defo listening to the wrong piece of music, Josh!
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I don’t know if I should start a new thread for this, as I do not want to interrupt the conversation about the symphonies.
Last night I listened to the ballet suite “The Bolt”. I always enjoy the jolly music of this piece but last night I read also some background information regarding it.
It had one performance only in 1931 before being banned. Stalin’s culture police came down hard on it and the choreographer ended up as an itinerant ballet master for many years. (His sister lived in London and was married to John Keynes and she wanted him to come to London and join their group here which included Ninette de Valois and Frederich Ashton. I would have impacted on the fledgeling Royal Ballet. He was a great choreographer and would have been a real influence here.
Shostakovich, undeterred, wrote another ballet which survived a little longer but also fell foul of the culture police, the librettist was sent to the gulag! and this impacted on the 4th symphony too. Dmitri cancelled the premiere and it was not performed until 1961.
I found this blog interesting:
https://www.theguardian.com/stage/dance-blog/2014/dec/31/the-bolt-shostakovich-ballet-history
Last night I listened to the ballet suite “The Bolt”. I always enjoy the jolly music of this piece but last night I read also some background information regarding it.
It had one performance only in 1931 before being banned. Stalin’s culture police came down hard on it and the choreographer ended up as an itinerant ballet master for many years. (His sister lived in London and was married to John Keynes and she wanted him to come to London and join their group here which included Ninette de Valois and Frederich Ashton. I would have impacted on the fledgeling Royal Ballet. He was a great choreographer and would have been a real influence here.
Shostakovich, undeterred, wrote another ballet which survived a little longer but also fell foul of the culture police, the librettist was sent to the gulag! and this impacted on the 4th symphony too. Dmitri cancelled the premiere and it was not performed until 1961.
I found this blog interesting:
https://www.theguardian.com/stage/dance-blog/2014/dec/31/the-bolt-shostakovich-ballet-history
Thanks Chris, that was very interesting. I'll have to give the music a listen, I don't think I have up to now.
...."while the chorus of Red Army cavalry, sitting astride a line of chairs, was considered an outrageous mockery."
That's amazing, and a very brave / stupid thing to have done!
The whole cultural control aspect of the Soviets under Stalin kind of reminds me of our own current "cancel culture" but with added gulags and bullets in the back of the head.
...."while the chorus of Red Army cavalry, sitting astride a line of chairs, was considered an outrageous mockery."
That's amazing, and a very brave / stupid thing to have done!
The whole cultural control aspect of the Soviets under Stalin kind of reminds me of our own current "cancel culture" but with added gulags and bullets in the back of the head.
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Re: the 4th, so it did occur to me that the fact I wrote a lot about it, relatively speaking, is probably a compliment to the piece in itself. I did say I found it interesting if not enjoyable, so it's certainly one I'm happy to come back to*. I tried a bit of Gergiev and have to say I don't think I liked it as much as the other two. The final movement was quite quick (6-7mins faster than Haitink) and I think it was a touch too fast.
*And maybe at least I agree with @Camverton:
However I'm glad my naive, ill-informed neophytic opinions managed to unite the two grizzled classical veterans in their opinions!
Re: the 6th, I didn't say I didn't like it! I did but it just sounded quite gentle. Maybe just coming from the 15th it sounded plain in comparison. I'll try it again later though for sure. For the William Tell bit though, do you not hear it in the opening bars of the third movement (and repeated throughout)?
Tangentially, for Sibelius' 6th, I have his cycle with Ashkenazy. Is there a particular one you'd recommend for the 6th?
Love this quote btw:
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