Shostakovich

[JANDL100]

 However I'm glad my naive, ill-informed neophytic opinions managed to unite the two grizzled classical veterans in their opinions!

I was expecting something along those lines in response.

For Malcolm and I to agree on anything except speakers is highly unusual! So congratulations on enabling us to achieve that. 

Nope, I can't hear the Lone Ranger thing in the finale of the 6th. Thank goodness. It would ruin it for me!

 

[JANDL100]

Tangential Sibelius 6th - the Karajan on DG that Malcolm mentioned is excellent. Ye gods, we're agreeing again. 

I also love Rozhdestvenky on Melodiya, if you can find it. Although the sq is a bit iffy. 

And this Berglund with the Berlin Rundfunk SO is magical (much better than his other recordings imo) 

 

[josh]

Argh I seem to have found at least three versions of Karajan on DG! Are these all the same or is there a 'right' one?


https://open.spotify.com/album/1OZPYhr8CGp3VlWcIJNrYC?si=ImhxebjnQZ-iyqoR7nJfIw&utm_source=copy-link

https://open.spotify.com/album/65GafEoAsNYeLXSMkilUte?si=T43AyBgOScGf2t0dfCSBrg&utm_source=copy-link

 

[JANDL100]

They're all the same. 

 

[josh]

Ta

 

[Camverton]

I was expecting something along those lines in response.

For Malcolm and I to agree on anything except speakers is highly unusual! So congratulations on enabling us to achieve that. 

Nope, I can't hear the Lone Ranger thing in the finale of the 6th. Thank goodness. It would ruin it for me!

Grump, grump, at this rate Jerry will be listening to Chord amps and I’ll be listening to underpowered, characterful amps .

 

[Camverton]

So I just listened to the 15th, by Maxim Shosti & Prague Symphony Orchestra as recommended by @Camverton. Overall I enjoyed it, and it was a refreshing change coming from listening to a number of RVW's symphonies in a row. I wrote down some notes but then realised they said pretty much what Alan did (well without reference to the quotations as I haven't got a clue about that ) - in terms of the flow from exuberant 'toyshop'  vibe to sombreness etc. The Lone Ranger theme in the 1st movement did jarr a bit for me - film association aside, it still seemed a little out of place and silly.

I can see why @JANDL100 doesn't like it (although I feel that saying it "bewilders and repels" you is quite strong - I've definitely heard worse, and from Shosti himself!) but I quite liked the juxtaposition of emotions as Malcolm pointed out. Overall though, although I enjoyed it, I prefer other of his symphonies and don't feel the need to re-listen in a hurry.

I’m just giving the 15th a spin and I don’t get any lone ranger vibes. What I do hear is a witty quote of Rossini within the cloak of pure Shostakovich. I would think it fairly unlikely that The Lone Ranger was broadcast in the USSR and even more unlikely that Dimitry had some iffy actor on a horse in mind when he quoted Rossini. 

It’s a pretty decent symphony to my mind, if not with the unrelenting gravitas of the 4th and 8th symphonies, but quintessential Shostakovich with a kaleidoscope of emotions from fun to despair to frivolity with a question mark. Personally, I would rather listen to it than the 5th and 10th although the first movement of the 10th is exceptional before the driven second movement. Unfortunately the last two movements, whilst perfectly reasonable by anyone else’s standards, are nowhere near the intensity of the first, so a very uneven symphony to me - perhaps I should listen to the movements in reverse order so I can save the best until last!

 

[JANDL100]

Quite an interesting article about the 15th here https://thelistenersclub.com/2018/09/26/shostakovichs-fifteenth-symphony-an-unsolvable-enigma/

Listening now to the 15th played by the Prague SO conducted by his son Maxim. I'm fairly sure I've not heard this recording before. 

Hmm, damn. I'm actually quite enjoying it. The Lone Ranger... err, I mean the Rossini William Tell Overture theme is more downplayed and integrated into the movement than I recall from other performances. It doesn't annnoy the hell out of me like it has done before. 

Definitely some classic later Shosty here. Kind of reminds me of the 2nd cello concerto. 

Yes, OK, like the 4th maybe it has finally clicked with me. Or maybe Malcolm's finely expressed rhetoric has convinced me. No, it couldn't be that.

 

[JANDL100]

So, how about ranking the symphonies? 

Top to bottom for me, hmm, maybe something like.... 

6, 10, 8, 9, 4, 15, 7, 1, 5, 12, 11, 14, 13

2 and 3 I need some time with. 

 

[JANDL100]

Particular performances? 

6 Paavo Jarvi 

10 Neeme Jarvi 

8 Previn DG

4 Boreyko 

15 Maxim

7 Anton Nanut

 

[josh]

Hang on, you are now ranking the 15 above 7 that you've raved about so often on here?! 

 

[Camverton]

Particular performances? 

6 Paavo Jarvi 

10 Neeme Jarvi 

8 Previn DG

4 Boreyko 

15 Maxim

7 Anton Nanut

Interesting. No Haitink or Kondrashin?

 

[JANDL100]

Interesting. No Haitink or Kondrashin?

Not for 6,10,8, 7 for sure. The ones listed are very dear to me. 15 has me convinced by Maxim for now. My loyalty stays with Boreyko for the 4th for now, I'll give Haitink a listen sometime soon. 

I might like to revisit Haitink for the others. Kondrashin, hmm, likewise further listening maybe. 

---

@josh

Rave. Rave? 

Surely someone of my inherent dignity doesn't rave about anything. 

Maybe my newfound enthusiasm for the 15th has overcome my better judgement for now. 

Bear in mind that over 6 years have passed. I realise that it's commonplace for God-like beings such as you, Josh, to casually resume conversations after a pause of that length, but lesser mortals can be impacted by such durations. 

 

[Andrei]

So, how about ranking the symphonies? 

Top to bottom for me, hmm, maybe something like.... 

6, 10, 8, 9, 4, 15, 7, 1, 5, 12, 11, 14, 13

2 and 3 I need some time with. 

5, 10 and first movement of the 11th.    I have only heard single movements at most of the others.

 

[josh]

@josh

Rave. Rave? 

Surely someone of my inherent dignity doesn't rave about anything. 

Maybe my newfound enthusiasm for the 15th has overcome my better judgement for now. 

Bear in mind that over 6 years have passed. I realise that it's commonplace for God-like beings such as you, Josh, to casually resume conversations after a pause of that length, but lesser mortals can be impacted by such durations. 

Haha, enthused about then

Anyway, I told you the 15th wasn't so bad... I haven't heard other versions so maybe they aren't as good as Maxim - and I agree that if Rossini was made any more prominent it would be awful. But, and this is a bugbear of mine with classical music, it shows how important individual performances are in determining one's enjoyment of a piece, if until now you've strongly disliked it and now you're quite enjoying it. Of course time has passed which changes things too.

On today's to-do list (between trying to do some actual work) - re-listen to the 6th, and try Sibelius' 6th.

I've listened to the viola sonata now a few times and am enjoying that piece. I wish I knew enough to be able to detect all his self-references (apparently he refs a bit of each symphony as well as other people) but I like it nonetheless

 

[JANDL100]

... and this is a bugbear of mine with classical music, it shows how important individual performances are in determining one's enjoyment of a piece

Hah, bugbear! 

That's one of the things that make classical music so fascinating. The infinite possibilities of interpreting the score. 

Defo another listen to sym15 today, but first some Correlli trio sonatas to welcome the new day a little more gently. 

 

[josh]

You're right of course, it is a strength of the genre as well. It just makes it exhausting when trying to acquaint oneself with works, not knowing if I actually don't like the piece or whether it's just an interpretation/performance I don't like. If I hear something I don't like, I feel like I need to try about 3 different versions at least to make sure! That's why I drive you all mad for best suggestions

Case in point, part of the reason why I left this forum initially was after the change in format and the loss of many posts and threads. One of them was my recording of my journey through Elgar's 2nd symphony. I didn't love the piece when I heard it but there was just something there that kept me coming back, a feeling I might prefer it with a different recording. Having heard about 5-6 versions, I eventually found one that clicked and I enjoyed it. Alas my post got deleted and I'd forgotten which one it was I liked, and just didn't have the time and energy to go through it all again! That was the final straw and I stormed off    I will be trying it again in the next few weeks though.

Anyway, back to Shosti, re-listened to the 6th and it is very nice. Not as bland (too strong a word, calm maybe) as I thought initially, but as I said back then, I'd just come from the 15th so in comparison it would seem extra quiet. I do like it more and I think the comparison with Sibelius is a good one - I wouldn't say it's one of my favourite symphonies, but it is enjoyable and with the recording of the Sinfonietta, I'll be adding that disc to my collection so thanks for that.

(Re: Correlli, funny, I've just taken delivery of Albinoni's synfonie a cinque, Charpentier's Te Deum and a compilation of Allegri, Tallis and others).

 

[JANDL100]

Thought I'd try Haitink's sym15. 

Dang, I like this, too.

And I much prefer the sound quality to Maxim on Supraphon. Big and bold and spacious. Although I think that's partly the playing - makes Maxim seem like he's conducting a chamber orchestra. 

I think I'm going to insert Haitink as preferred recording for 15.  I must try his other recordings in the set. 

I suspect it did need Maxim's low key approach to inoculate me against the 15th's silliness, but now I can explore other interpretations. 

 

[josh]

I think I'm going to insert Haitink as preferred recording for 15.  I must try his other recordings in the set.  

Start with the 4th

 

[Camverton]

Start with the 4th

And make that his Chicago version where he, if nothing else, makes more sense of the apparent chaos for the sound overwhelmed listener.