TCP/IP Networking, Cables and Numpties

[Maverick]

CAT5e cable is improved over CAT5 as cross talk has been greatly reduced, so this might make some general network sense, but recent installations will probably be 5e anyway

Cat6 is designed especially for gigabit ethernet use - so if your system will stream music at that rate knock yourself out :roll:

 

[karlinamillion]

Duh, its 1 better :doh:

Too slow! see post #20

 

[rdale]

Do you think that the world's largest companies running mission critical data centres are using boutique brand Ethernet cables to meet their SLAs?

They probably use something like Belden bought in bulk and terminate the cables themselves. That is the service that Blue Jeans provide, and they also test and certify each cable they sell. They don't make any claims about sonic differences, and don't charge all that much IMHO.

I bet data centres don't buy any old rubbish than you might find in a random computer shop.

 

[vacdac]

As long as network cables meet spec, plugs fitted with adequate strain relief will probably do more to aid data integrity/ensure everything is working than all the fundament smog being blown up your jacksie by foo peddlers.

Some while back I was using a cheap Belkin patch cable with none existent strain relief* to connect my SBT to my router (*none moulded push fit plug) & would sometimes lose connection/get buffering issues which a little jiggling at the connector would sort out. It is worth pointing out that at the time I bought this cable from Argos that the cable shown had moulded plugs, I was pissed off at the time & but for the need for a cable there & then would have returned it.

I've since started using these, which are cheap from Amacu***z & even a 15m run only costs £8-49>>>

Duronic 15m Professional Gold Headed Network Cable - Black - High Speed Premium Quality Cat6 / Patch / Ethernet / Modem / Router / LAN

• Available in 0.5/1/1.5/2/3/5/10/15/20/25 and 30 metres in Black and White Fully Twisted Pairs Cat6 Cable with 500MHz Speed
  
• All Duronic cables are shielded, perfect for use in high-noise environments where shielding helps.
  
• Compliant network standards: 10BASE-T, 100BASE-TX, 100BASE-T4, 1000BASE-T, 10GBASE-T, ATM-25, ATM-51, ATM-155, 100VG-AnyLan, TR-4, TR-16 Active, TR-16 Passive
  
• Duronic cables are FTP (Foiled Twisted Pair) and these have a higher specification then UTP (Unshielded twisted pair)
  
• Duronic patch cables are made from 100% pure copper
  These hardly cost the earth, indeed the 3m/5m lengths come in at the same sort of price** as the cheap 'n cheerful offerings from the Asda/Argos stores I have practically on my doorstep. Having been bitten once by cheapo/unfit for purpose ethernet cables I'd tend to buy these or summat similar from now on. (**slightly less in fact:^)
  

 

[HoopsOnToast]

Too slow! see post #20

Sorry your highness :notworthy: IamNotWorthy :cs:

 

[karlinamillion]

Sorry your highness :notworthy: IamNotWorthy :cs:

I'll let you off this time.

 

[HoopsOnToast]

I'll let you off this time.

:hug:

 

[tonerei]

As long as network cables meet spec, plugs fitted with adequate strain relief will probably do more to aid data integrity/ensure everything is working than all the fundament smog being blown up your jacksie by foo peddlers.Some while back I was using a cheap Belkin patch cable with none existent strain relief* to connect my SBT to my router (*none moulded push fit plug) & would sometimes lose connection/get buffering issues which a little jiggling at the connector would sort out. It is worth pointing out that at the time I bought this cable from Argos that the cable shown had moulded plugs, I was pissed off at the time & but for the need for a cable there & then would have returned it.

I've since started using these, which are cheap from Amacu***z & even a 15m run only costs £8-49>>>

Duronic 15m Professional Gold Headed Network Cable - Black - High Speed Premium Quality Cat6 / Patch / Ethernet / Modem / Router / LAN

• Available in 0.5/1/1.5/2/3/5/10/15/20/25 and 30 metres in Black and White Fully Twisted Pairs Cat6 Cable with 500MHz Speed
  
• All Duronic cables are shielded, perfect for use in high-noise environments where shielding helps.
  
• Compliant network standards: 10BASE-T, 100BASE-TX, 100BASE-T4, 1000BASE-T, 10GBASE-T, ATM-25, ATM-51, ATM-155, 100VG-AnyLan, TR-4, TR-16 Active, TR-16 Passive
  
• Duronic cables are FTP (Foiled Twisted Pair) and these have a higher specification then UTP (Unshielded twisted pair)
  
• Duronic patch cables are made from 100% pure copper
  These hardly cost the earth, indeed the 3m/5m lengths come in at the same sort of price** as the cheap 'n cheerful offerings from the Asda/Argos stores I have practically on my doorstep. Having been bitten once by cheapo/unfit for purpose ethernet cables I'd tend to buy these or summat similar from now on. (**slightly less in fact:^)
  

Ah common Chris! They look nowhere near as flashy as audioquest cables

Unless buying secondhand the yokes above would be my first port of call. No big deal if they don't work out.

 

[linnman]

Quite agree with all previous comments on so called audio Ethernet cables in regard to TCP/IP but just a question from an uniformed amateur,

Do ALL streamers, network players etc use TCP/IP or do some use UDP where packets may be lost and not retransmitted ?

 

[MrSammy]

The DNLA spec does actually use some UDP but not for the communication of audio data. If you are steaming compressed audio like FLAC then a missing packet would cause the decompressing to fail rather than just dropping the odd sample. You would definitely hear that.

If people are able to detect a difference in a double blind setup ( which I haven't seen any evidence they can ) the only cause would be the receiving TCP/IP stack having to do more work getting the packets in order and requesting more resends. If you had a badly designed setup this would inject more noise into the streamer as you would be undergoing operations that you otherwise wouldn't need. You can still meet the Quality of Service rules and stream in real time even you need to have resends and re-ordering as PCM data isn't even a challanging use of bandwidth anymore. This additional current draw could inject noise onto the audio output stage. Personally I think this is rubbish. A well designed output stage would be immune to this and surely you would pick up more noise from background RFI than you would for a few additional cycles in the NIC part of the streamer. Also a good quality commercial Ethernet cable will more than meet the specs even if it isn't made from pure silver that was rolled on the thighs of south american women.

Some people believe WAV sounds better than FLAC as the streamer has to do less operations as no decompression is needed. Again I think this is rubbish. I've tried this double blind on a number of systems and I cannot tell one from the other.

 

[browellm]

The DNLA spec does actually use some UDP but not for the communication of audio data. If you are steaming compressed audio like FLAC then a missing packet would cause the decompressing to fail rather than just dropping the odd sample. You would definitely hear that. If people are able to detect a difference in a double blind setup ( which I haven't seen any evidence they can ) the only cause would be the receiving TCP/IP stack having to do more work getting the packets in order and requesting more resends. If you had a badly designed setup this would inject more noise into the streamer as you would be undergoing operations that you otherwise wouldn't need. You can still meet the Quality of Service rules and stream in real time even you need to have resends and re-ordering as PCM data isn't even a challanging use of bandwidth anymore. This additional current draw could inject noise onto the audio output stage. Personally I think this is rubbish. A well designed output stage would be immune to this and surely you would pick up more noise from background RFI than you would for a few additional cycles in the NIC part of the streamer. Also a good quality commercial Ethernet cable will more than meet the specs even if it isn't made from pure silver that was rolled on the thighs of south american women.

Some people believe WAV sounds better than FLAC as the streamer has to do less operations as no decompression is needed. Again I think this is rubbish. I've tried this double blind on a number of systems and I cannot tell one from the other.

:goodone: The FLAC/WAV decompression thing has been tested with Audiodiffmaker too which can correlate differences down to -90dB. Result: no difference.

 

[chris217]

Blimey you guys talk a funny language.

There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary and those who do not.

To decipher Paul's message, see: http://sticksandstones.kstrom.com/appen.html

 

[rdale]

If people are able to detect a difference in a double blind setup ( which I haven't seen any evidence they can ) the only cause would be the receiving TCP/IP stack having to do more work getting the packets in order and requesting more resends. If you had a badly designed setup this would inject more noise into the streamer as you would be undergoing operations that you otherwise wouldn't need. You can still meet the Quality of Service rules and stream in real time even you need to have resends and re-ordering as PCM data isn't even a challanging use of bandwidth anymore. This additional current draw could inject noise onto the audio output stage. Personally I think this is rubbish. A well designed output stage would be immune to this and surely you would pick up more noise from background RFI than you would for a few additional cycles in the NIC part of the streamer. Also a good quality commercial Ethernet cable will more than meet the specs even if it isn't made from pure silver that was rolled on the thighs of south american women.

Thanks for a constructive comment pointing out that any differences in the sound of ethernet cables are more likely to be about EMI/RFI noise issues, rather than bits not arriving at all. And you say it is most likely there aren't any differences at all. You may be right in that a poor quality cable will cause more resends, resulting in more noise, assuming each send makes some noise in the first place.

I suspect there is a lot of electrical noise in sending high frequency square waves down multiple wires in close proximity, and the most likely explanation of any audible differences between ethernet cables would be shielding quality. Apart from the problem that ethernet is supposed to be electrically isolated.

 

[meninblack]

Er, no. The MOST likely explanation is that the computer cable fantasists are fucked up in the head. :^

Granted EMI/RFI may be second.

 

[rdale]

Er, no. The MOST likely explanation is that the computer cable fantasists are fucked up in the head. :^ Granted EMI/RFI may be second.

I'm not actually a 'cable fantasist', I bought some nice looking cables with good plugs and whatnot, installed them, and then pretty much forgot about them.

 

[Maverick]

There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary and those who do not. To decipher Paul's message, see: http://sticksandstones.kstrom.com/appen.html

or better still : http://www.binarytranslator.com/

You may be right in that a poor quality cable will cause more resends, resulting in more noise, assuming each send makes some noise in the first place. I suspect there is a lot of electrical noise in sending high frequency square waves down multiple wires in close proximity, and the most likely explanation of any audible differences between ethernet cables would be shielding quality. Apart from the problem that ethernet is supposed to be electrically isolated.

hence why Cat5e vs Cat5

 

[Vincent52]

As long as network cables meet spec, plugs fitted with adequate strain relief will probably do more to aid data integrity/ensure everything is working than all the fundament smog being blown up your jacksie by foo peddlers.Some while back I was using a cheap Belkin patch cable with none existent strain relief* to connect my SBT to my router (*none moulded push fit plug) & would sometimes lose connection/get buffering issues which a little jiggling at the connector would sort out. It is worth pointing out that at the time I bought this cable from Argos that the cable shown had moulded plugs, I was pissed off at the time & but for the need for a cable there & then would have returned it.

I've since started using these, which are cheap from Amacu***z & even a 15m run only costs £8-49>>>

Duronic 15m Professional Gold Headed Network Cable - Black - High Speed Premium Quality Cat6 / Patch / Ethernet / Modem / Router / LAN

I knew that if I read this thread for long enough that you would be on to offers some sound advice. Thanks Chris. :^

 

[It Cost How Much!?!]

They probably use something like Belden bought in bulk and terminate the cables themselves. That is the service that Blue Jeans provide, and they also test and certify each cable they sell. They don't make any claims about sonic differences, and don't charge all that much IMHO.I bet data centres don't buy any old rubbish than you might find in a random computer shop.

The business I work for streams large amounts of data across the country using Cat 6 cabling (thousands of cables and big Cisco switches), typically copying or sending many Terra bytes of data at a time, all with "stock" Cat 6 cables from a IT commodity trade seller, we have no issues with either data or broadcast hi-def media. So yes we do use that rubbish, as it's cheap and does the job for at least 5 years. Granted the backbone is fibre, but the outer edge (i.e. the bit to the PC is Cat 6).

If you were mega fussy, you would abandon copper and just use top quality fibre optical, but that isn't cheap (typically £100 a connector + cable at £2 a metre), which would be excessive for home use.

As I have said before in this thread, audio is piddly small data traffic, hi-def streaming video you need Cat 6 1G bit/sec.

- - - Updated - - -

p.s. I use a Amazon £3 USB 4M cable at home for streaming, which is probably why I think streaming is crap. :roll:

 

[rdale]

The business I work for streams large amounts of data across the country using Cat 6 cabling (thousands of cables and big Cisco switches), typically copying or sending many Terra bytes of data at a time, all with "stock" Cat 6 cables from a IT commodity trade seller, we have no issues with either data or broadcast hi-def media. So yes we do use that rubbish, as it's cheap and does the job for at least 5 years. Granted the backbone is fibre, but the outer edge (i.e. the bit to the PC is Cat 6).

I might be wrong, but at the very least I would expect your company to only buy cable sold as 'Cat 6' which met the specification. I would also expect them to get the cables terminated with plugs that also met the specs and that were strong enough to not fall apart when you sneezed near them.

I'm pretty sure that in the context of a home computer audio the bits will arrive ok, not matter how bad the cable you use is. A really bad cable might slow the network down, and a really bad plug might break and stop your network from working altogether.

However, audiophile DACs and the rest of a high quality audio system are messed up by noisy components such a computers, cheap switching PSUs, and possibly ethernet cables which emit RFI and subject the ground plane to EMI. As I have yet to read any technical explanation of why ethernet cables might screw things up (they should be electrically isolated, use error checking and the packets can even arrive out of order), I can't really say I've come across anything like a convincing technical explanation yet.

 

[smegger68]

Agree with Bob. Once you've worked in a data center you quickly realise how ridiculous the foo products aimed at computer audio are