The Great Cable Debate - Why Do People Get So Worked Up?
- Thread starter The_Krell
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There is an issue in audio: manufacturers have a vested interest in creating a market for their products, and some of those audio products have been made with improvements that are immeasurable. That is a fact, an objective view.
Now, it may well be that those same products will be positively received by the purchaser. The purchaser could well hear significant gains in performance and, like anything we buy, if the buyer is happy with the product, then that is really what matters.
I come to this from forty years of audio experience, and I have been asked for help or advice on a number of occasions by people who either have less experience than I, or who may lack a bit of confidence in knowing what steps to take. I have also asked others for advice, like @SergeAuckland, or @It Cost How Much!?! . I always say this: buy speakers to match your room; then choose an amplifier that can drive the speakers properly; and then buy your source. The first two have by far the biggest impact on sound quality. I also advise attending bake-offs and hosting them, so that you can short-list the type of gear that you enjoy to listen to. I have had expensive cables and expensive gear so I can speak from experience.
I am passionate about the issue because I want friends and people who ask advice to receive an honest account. I have no business interest in the game, and I do want audio companies to succeed (it benefits us all) but I am not prepared to say nothing if I feel that someone is taking the wrong path in improving their system, or if I feel that a move they are making will be an expensive mistake. Ultimately, our hobby is a subjective one really, but forums exist for exchanges of views and to share experiences. There is always going to be some polarisation in such a hobby, and I cannot tell someone else what they can hear, or cannot, but I can offer my thoughts because that is why the WAM and other forums exist.
Now, it may well be that those same products will be positively received by the purchaser. The purchaser could well hear significant gains in performance and, like anything we buy, if the buyer is happy with the product, then that is really what matters.
I come to this from forty years of audio experience, and I have been asked for help or advice on a number of occasions by people who either have less experience than I, or who may lack a bit of confidence in knowing what steps to take. I have also asked others for advice, like @SergeAuckland, or @It Cost How Much!?! . I always say this: buy speakers to match your room; then choose an amplifier that can drive the speakers properly; and then buy your source. The first two have by far the biggest impact on sound quality. I also advise attending bake-offs and hosting them, so that you can short-list the type of gear that you enjoy to listen to. I have had expensive cables and expensive gear so I can speak from experience.
I am passionate about the issue because I want friends and people who ask advice to receive an honest account. I have no business interest in the game, and I do want audio companies to succeed (it benefits us all) but I am not prepared to say nothing if I feel that someone is taking the wrong path in improving their system, or if I feel that a move they are making will be an expensive mistake. Ultimately, our hobby is a subjective one really, but forums exist for exchanges of views and to share experiences. There is always going to be some polarisation in such a hobby, and I cannot tell someone else what they can hear, or cannot, but I can offer my thoughts because that is why the WAM and other forums exist.
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I'm in the pro camp, but differences caused by cabling/mains are always system dependent, the difference may or may not exist. Then comes the fight over whether or not your kit is good enough to let the differences be heard, which is a way of saying your kit is too cheap or your ears are full of wax, and then the foxholes are too deep to get out.
Or fighting the cables is your last chance to say you haven't lost your mind (even though we're all in the same mental hospital) because you have to admit that you were tricked into getting hi-fi in the first place, because where's the day and night difference between a kitchen radio and your hi-fi?
Or fighting the cables is your last chance to say you haven't lost your mind (even though we're all in the same mental hospital) because you have to admit that you were tricked into getting hi-fi in the first place, because where's the day and night difference between a kitchen radio and your hi-fi?
We can only give opinion on our own experiences.
I’m not a cable believer, I’m not out to criticise others, my peneth worth genuinely comes from a good place, I just don’t want people to, in my opinion to waste money like I did many years ago.
I’m not a cable believer, I’m not out to criticise others, my peneth worth genuinely comes from a good place, I just don’t want people to, in my opinion to waste money like I did many years ago.
I'll sometimes chime in on a cable debate to say that I've got several relatively inexpensive cables that I can clearly hear the difference between and I keep them to tune my system when I buy a new component. There have been times when I've bought something and thought I didn't like it and would have to move it on. But then I remember my cable collection, have a play and find out I like the new toy after all. So it's a very useful tool in my toolbox for tuning my system.
If others say they can't hear a difference I don't dispute it, and I don't understand why others do. Who am I, or anyone else, to tell someone else what they can or can't hear. It's people like this, who doggedly insist if they can (or can't) hear it then others who disagree are wrong or lying or whatever, who cause all the arguments.
If others say they can't hear a difference I don't dispute it, and I don't understand why others do. Who am I, or anyone else, to tell someone else what they can or can't hear. It's people like this, who doggedly insist if they can (or can't) hear it then others who disagree are wrong or lying or whatever, who cause all the arguments.
As usual, there are a number of threads combined here.
Do cables make a difference? Possibly. Possibly in some situations. Possibly depending on the cable.
Do cables make a massive difference? Not unless they're faulty in one way or another. Small and subtle are the sensible words.
Why do people get wound up about cables? No idea. As above, none of us who've been mucking about with this stuff for decades want to see people get fed up with the hobby because they've spent unwisely. That doesn't explain the vitriol. Maybe there's some envy because people are in a position where they can 'waste' money. Who knows. Ask a psychiatrist. Or maybe a spirit medium.
Do cables make a difference? Possibly. Possibly in some situations. Possibly depending on the cable.
Do cables make a massive difference? Not unless they're faulty in one way or another. Small and subtle are the sensible words.
Why do people get wound up about cables? No idea. As above, none of us who've been mucking about with this stuff for decades want to see people get fed up with the hobby because they've spent unwisely. That doesn't explain the vitriol. Maybe there's some envy because people are in a position where they can 'waste' money. Who knows. Ask a psychiatrist. Or maybe a spirit medium.
The replies here show some of the problems with this type of conversation. Basically, it isn't a conversation, it is a series of questions and statements. No nuance, no ability to reply or modify responses in real time. As an example, Richard and I "know" each other well enough to not start flaming, and usually are in broad agreement on many subjects. But we have never met, can't hear each other's tone of voice or see facial expressions, so even we get to the point we have on this subject. He has more technical knowledge than I have, but I do have over 50 years of tinkering and making/modifying experience. I try to stick to relating my actual experiences, but then react to absolutist (IMO) statements.
A common problem with this type of media, and hopefully an answer to part of the OP's questions. So time for me to (dis)gracefully retire, I think.
A common problem with this type of media, and hopefully an answer to part of the OP's questions. So time for me to (dis)gracefully retire, I think.
We'll fix the 'not yet met' sooner or later, and I'm not convinced I have more knowledge. You managed to get your DHT quiet, which is not a word I could really use for my 01a
As for the rest, someone mentioned above that in the grand scheme of things, none of our systems are so far removed from a kitchen radio. In truth, many people who are relatively fussy about all sorts of things simply can't understand our obsession with the smallest bit of noise or difference (even assuming there is a difference).
At the end of it, as our great founder used to remind us: it's only a bloody stereo.
The type 26 was quiet, but the 01A is still in the loft waiting for me to get around to getting rid of the hum! Far too much gain, so a TVC on the output is the only way it is usable.. You managed to get your DHT quiet, which is not a word I could really use for my 01a
Folk who have high end gear will buy expensive cables. I have no issues with that. Some folk are content at budget to mid levels and imo should choose ancillaries to suit. What puzzles me is when folk compare cables in the same price range and claim night and day differences or say they tune their system with wires.
I've run mine with Rod Coleman cathode bias, with fixed cathode bias, with resistor plate load, with choke plate load and with all combinations. I've got eight different 01a in the pile, but I've struggled to get two that remain consistent in plate current. I looked at it as some sort of triumph when I got it stable and decently matched in current draw, then when I tried it, the noise floor was utterly dire. Oddly, it's not that microphonic, but it seems to be like a noise magnet. The HT is as clean as I can get it and it's relatively hum free, but other background noise is far too prevalent.The type 26 was quiet, but the 01A is still in the loft waiting for me to get around to getting rid of the hum! Far too much gain, so a TVC on the output is the only way it is usable.
I'll get back to it one day. This year will be power amp year though.
I suspect it is a mixture of issues. One is the nature of the internet in polarising opinions. This has got mixed up with 'clickbaiting'. If you want people to read your insight; title it the best cables ever, avoid the foo idiots, don't be a fool, etc. That gets you noticed. It also means that the response is likely to be inflamed. At yesterday's bake-off, there were opinions expressed that were opposed, but no 'you must be a bloody idiot' comments. Keyboard warriors says it well and on both sides.
Audio is also a little unusual (understatement). We seem to be one of the hobbies where anyone spending a lot of money on equipment is a fool parting with their money. If you see a Ferrari, the majority will go ooh, what a car and admire the car and its engineering. Now a £50K speaker is a complete bloody waste and when anyone asks about getting a more expensive speaker will attract the 'waste of bloody money' comments. If you want a faster car that looks great and is comfortable, you will have to pay more. If you want a more natural-sounding amplifier, with lots of power and is reliable....you can get it cheaper by following my advice??? Yea. Or an Omega watch is admired but not a well-engineered CD player.
And then there are cables; polarisation, no difference or cheap is good or they make no difference or all of the science supports me and all the other comments, asserted over and over again. Wow, jackpot. I never knew science was so closed-minded. Most cable sellers will let you borrow the cables and you can then, in the safety of your own home, listen and if there is no difference return them. No product to defend, do it by post and no nasty dealer to con you with sweet words, little cost.
And the rather obvious comment, very, very few are converted by polarised arguments, shouting does not work but maybe it makes you feel good.
For me I have found some cables on some components make no difference, or they make subtle/useful differences, or they make a small difference that mattered a lot to me. Makes them bloody frustrating as you can't guarantee they will make a difference in every case.
And who knows, maybe it offends my aesthetics using a (review) £35K amplifier with a £1.50 interconnect.
Audio is also a little unusual (understatement). We seem to be one of the hobbies where anyone spending a lot of money on equipment is a fool parting with their money. If you see a Ferrari, the majority will go ooh, what a car and admire the car and its engineering. Now a £50K speaker is a complete bloody waste and when anyone asks about getting a more expensive speaker will attract the 'waste of bloody money' comments. If you want a faster car that looks great and is comfortable, you will have to pay more. If you want a more natural-sounding amplifier, with lots of power and is reliable....you can get it cheaper by following my advice??? Yea. Or an Omega watch is admired but not a well-engineered CD player.
And then there are cables; polarisation, no difference or cheap is good or they make no difference or all of the science supports me and all the other comments, asserted over and over again. Wow, jackpot. I never knew science was so closed-minded. Most cable sellers will let you borrow the cables and you can then, in the safety of your own home, listen and if there is no difference return them. No product to defend, do it by post and no nasty dealer to con you with sweet words, little cost.
And the rather obvious comment, very, very few are converted by polarised arguments, shouting does not work but maybe it makes you feel good.
For me I have found some cables on some components make no difference, or they make subtle/useful differences, or they make a small difference that mattered a lot to me. Makes them bloody frustrating as you can't guarantee they will make a difference in every case.
And who knows, maybe it offends my aesthetics using a (review) £35K amplifier with a £1.50 interconnect.
Bill Shankly famously said..“Some people believe football is a matter of life and death. I am very disappointed with that attitude. I can assure you it is much, much more important than that.”
Cables are just cables, but if Bill Shankly had made them they would be the best cables.
Cables are just cables, but if Bill Shankly had made them they would be the best cables.
Everyone sticking to their side of their story still on this thread as usual. One person's improvement may be not significant to the other, cause different aspects of the music matters to one or the other.
I've heard significant differences in cables and not in the sense of better, but significant still. Now that's my experience and like everyone else who has the right to air their experience.
Hopefully one day in the far future people would look at us and say poor things I wish they knew what we know now
Even after coming to my own conclusions, I'm still open minded enough to be proven wrong.
I've heard significant differences in cables and not in the sense of better, but significant still. Now that's my experience and like everyone else who has the right to air their experience.
Hopefully one day in the far future people would look at us and say poor things I wish they knew what we know now
Even after coming to my own conclusions, I'm still open minded enough to be proven wrong.
The best comparison is probably luxury watches. There is no performance improvement between a Patek Philippe and a GShock, but the pride of ownership, the individuality and engineering excellence, makes some believe that the Patek is a worthwhile purchase. I can, therefore, understand that a product like a speaker or amplifier will generate similar feelings - a pride of ownership based around the sound (naturally) but also the beautiful construction, the cabinetry or the milled aluminium. If the product does not perform to a measurably superior standard though, there will always be people that question the value. The only feelings that matter here are the feelings of the buyer.
Does the same pride of ownership exist in cables? Because if the product is not superior, technically or measurably, and the pride of ownership is not a factor, then there is a question to be asked. I am not one to be asked, as I am not the target market nor a likely purchaser, so perhaps someone else can answer.
Does the same pride of ownership exist in cables? Because if the product is not superior, technically or measurably, and the pride of ownership is not a factor, then there is a question to be asked. I am not one to be asked, as I am not the target market nor a likely purchaser, so perhaps someone else can answer.
Next... a thread where people get worked up... about people who have got worked up... about other people getting worked up with each other.
Did you know that the UK has a productivity problem?
Did you know that the UK has a productivity problem?
Interestingly, if you go Quartz or even better, radio controlled, then there is a definite performance disadvantage with the luxury analogue (mechanical) watches - my cheapo Casio radio controlled watch is never more than a second out relative to the NPL time standard, but that is an unreachable level of performance for an analogue watch. Of course, some would say the same applies to the comparison between analogue and digial sources...
Beyond basic requirements, watches are jewellery.
I can walk into a beach club in Barbados, unshaven, stained t-shirt, ripped shorts, bare feet... and be asked to leave.
I can walk into a beach club in Barbados, unshaven, stained t-shirt, ripped shorts, bare feet, wearing a Rolex... and be shown to my sunbed.
I can walk into a beach club in Barbados, unshaven, stained t-shirt, ripped shorts, bare feet... and be asked to leave.
I can walk into a beach club in Barbados, unshaven, stained t-shirt, ripped shorts, bare feet, wearing a Rolex... and be shown to my sunbed.
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