The good news about LPs and cassettes are that you get the right to wear T-shirt’s like this one I have. Doesn’t quite look as cool if you put a CD or hard drive on there!
Wanted: Turntable Pros and Cons
- Thread starter ChemMan
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Because the only person I know who has a TT, my good buddy in CA, uses this one. Don't forget, in the OP I said in know nothing about TT. I'm making this up as I go along.
Looks a bit warped to me.The good news about LPs and cassettes are that you get the right to wear T-shirt’s like this one I have. Doesn’t quite look as cool if you put a CD or hard drive on there!
That would be my oversized belly. I couldn’t be bothered to take it off and lay it flat for the photo!!
Do you like the sound of it? What t/t is he using? I have re-read your comment that you didn’t hear a benefit of vinyl over digital. What do you want to hear from a t/t that might be appealing to you?
I see, I was only joking.That would be my oversized belly. I couldn’t be bothered to take it off and lay it flat for the photo!!
I wrote, IF indeed it (Digital vs Vinyl) behaves just like the difference in the McIntosh vs VTL, then there is a good reason to lay out the money for a simplex and some LPs. It it's going to be the difference between CD/Tidal/MQA, I'm not going to bother.
In other words, changing from Mac amp to VTL amp was an enormous improvement in emotional connection to the music. If this qualitative difference would be similar in/when comparing Digital to Vinyl than it would be worth doing. I don't know yet, because I can't go out on my usual tear around the country listening to every TT in every HiFi shop because all are closed.
If the difference between digital and vinyl is as subtle to/as the difference between CD/Tidal/Tidal MQA i would rather not bother. These three were different but not enough to be bothered about.
Is this clearer? I'm not writing well today. Too much screen time on home office today me thinks.
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Steve your writing is fine. I realise that it’s all theoretical right now and a listen is probably the only way to be sure of a direction. For me there is a difference but it depends on what you listen to. There is a lot more variability between t/ts and cartridges than between digital.
Digital v Vinyl isn't quite as simple as that. There's no stopping your nice expensive vinyl record actually being nothing more than the digital recording on vinyl.
The best records I owned were from the late 50s and early 60s where they were pure analogue and have something about them that digital doesn't have - something warm, organic and easy flowing, that their modern digital versions lacked.
Some of these recordings have never seen a digital release, and that has something to aid the connection to the recording.
When it comes to vinyl playback there are way too many variables involved. I have two copies of Blondie's parallel lines, one second hand and on a crap piece of thin vinyl, one from the reissued EMI series on 180g vinyl celebrating their 100 years. The 2nd hand vinyl sound far better than the modern release which by all accounts came from a digital copy and not from the original analogue tapes.
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It is definitely not similar to the difference between CD and Tidal, I'm sure you will hear a clear difference but if you have never listened to vinyl you may find the other noises a bit annoying, especially between the tracks and quiet pieces. You could play some vinyl rips or samples but these will be digital but it may give you some idea. Or even look at comparisons on youtube here is one:
I don't think this a good digital reissue, sounds pretty bad to me but it gives you an idea of the differences.
Fans of vinyl will say things such as more fuller, warmer, realist sound. A lot depends on mastering, if buying digital recordings I probably would not bother.
Digital can sound cold and clinical on some recordings. Problem with most digital after around 1998 is compression to make it louder.
The best-performing (more accurate) vinyl playing systems will sound close to CD (albeit with some issues).
But many people tend to choose vinyl because it sounds different from CD, so they often go for the not so best-peforming setups. Be prepared for a massive can of worms.
Since you seem to enjoy a bit of spice (euphonic distortion) it could be fun, if you have the cash.
.
If I remember correctly you introduced yourself to the Wam by saying that this would be a one time system purchase. We all smiled.
At 20 years old I had probably 80/90 albums. Somebody left the radiator on at our place at Uni. All the records were warped upon returning from Xmas break. I switched to CD.
When I visit my good pal in CA in the summer, we listen to a lot of vinyl, but on his system, not mine. Our comparisons revealed digital to CD is/was nearly identical on the stuff we jointly love: Steely Dan, Zep, Beatles, Stones, Supertramp, Elton John, Chicago. He has audio research amps/pre. Bel Canto Digital. TT is a project evolution extension 10 with a Phase Mation 300 cart. Some kind of tube phono stage. Pops and hiss and hiss didn't matter to me when we were listening, even critically. Whiskey helps.
My step father, had a Linn Sondek and only vinyl for my entire childhood. My old man, had only vinyl his entire life.
I have not heard the new cartridge on my Canadian pals system. I heard the ortofon red cadenza.
I never get this idea you have to spend £££'s on a turntable to hear results, I get just as much pleasure out of my P6 as I do out of my Node 2/MDAC combo. Slightly second hand from Moorgate Acoustics it cost about £800 and can easily surpass digital. Don't buy the faff argument either, get record out, put it on and listen.
I think I said my budget for speakers was 2k and was looking at B&W 704 or Kef R500. When it rains............
I'm a big analogue (vinyl) fan. And I'm also a big digital (CD) fan. Done correctly, both mediums are capable of stunning, immersive, emotionally-rewarding results. I don't like the assumptions some have made here that LPs pressed from digital masters are pointless, implying that only decades-old, all-analogue recordings are worth listening to.
Done properly, I think a modern recording / mastering pressed to LP can sound pretty stunning. Not necessarily the "best of both worlds", and not necessarily producing the "warm, lush, analogue sound" people talk of, but certainly hugely enjoyable. As has been mentioned by others, LP done right has this intangible "rightness" (don't ask me to explain it) that isn't necessarily anything to do with frequency response, channel separation, dynamic headroom or any of that tred. By the measurements, analogue replay is demonstrably inferior to digital but it doesn't necessarily sound that way.
I've heard many an "old" recording that actually sounded pretty sh** to my ears, putting-paid to the idea that you can measure an album's worth by what decade it was manufactured in. I suppose I'm trying to say, (to paraphrase) don't judge the LP by the shininess of it's cover. By the same token, again also mentioned by @griffo104 don't assume every remaster, every 180gm half-speed pressing is going to blow away the old cheapo issue, some are technically superior but don't "connect" the way the old record does. I still prefer my slightly clicky original pressing of Jean-Michel Jarre's Equinoxe over the Mo-Fi copy I have, can't put my finger on why, but I just know that the copy I keep going back to is the original.
Done properly, I think a modern recording / mastering pressed to LP can sound pretty stunning. Not necessarily the "best of both worlds", and not necessarily producing the "warm, lush, analogue sound" people talk of, but certainly hugely enjoyable. As has been mentioned by others, LP done right has this intangible "rightness" (don't ask me to explain it) that isn't necessarily anything to do with frequency response, channel separation, dynamic headroom or any of that tred. By the measurements, analogue replay is demonstrably inferior to digital but it doesn't necessarily sound that way.
I've heard many an "old" recording that actually sounded pretty sh** to my ears, putting-paid to the idea that you can measure an album's worth by what decade it was manufactured in. I suppose I'm trying to say, (to paraphrase) don't judge the LP by the shininess of it's cover. By the same token, again also mentioned by @griffo104 don't assume every remaster, every 180gm half-speed pressing is going to blow away the old cheapo issue, some are technically superior but don't "connect" the way the old record does. I still prefer my slightly clicky original pressing of Jean-Michel Jarre's Equinoxe over the Mo-Fi copy I have, can't put my finger on why, but I just know that the copy I keep going back to is the original.
OK thanks, it is a lot clearer now, sounded like you did not have any experience of vinyl from some of your earlier comments.
To Summarize what I've learned in regard to TT set ups (all inclusive) in the sub €2500 arena.
1. MC in general is superior in sound to MM, but not always. MM has the benefit of replaceable stylus.
2. Suspended TT are possibly better than Non, but increase the amount of finagling required.
3. Most TT are now belt drive with Technics still making direct drive. Belt drives can be finicky.
4. Project does not get much love from "serious'' TT people.
5. Album quality whether, new or old varies wildly across the range. Best bets tend to be older pressings form analog tape, but again not always.
6. Chances of hearing an enhanced emotional connection with Vinyl over digital, on par with changing from solid state to full tubes, is possible but will require A LOT of effort.
7. Hunting for nice records has many limiting factors (mastering, quality, where pressed, etc.) but is FUN. (it would be for me)
8. For those who scoff at synergy of a full system, synergy between the four main parts of a TT set up is important. TT, phono stage, tone arm and cart require careful matching and can be changed to create different overall presentations of the music.
9. Record cleaning machine is pretty much mandatory for someone who has to start buying second hand vinyl.
About right?
1. MC in general is superior in sound to MM, but not always. MM has the benefit of replaceable stylus.
2. Suspended TT are possibly better than Non, but increase the amount of finagling required.
3. Most TT are now belt drive with Technics still making direct drive. Belt drives can be finicky.
4. Project does not get much love from "serious'' TT people.
5. Album quality whether, new or old varies wildly across the range. Best bets tend to be older pressings form analog tape, but again not always.
6. Chances of hearing an enhanced emotional connection with Vinyl over digital, on par with changing from solid state to full tubes, is possible but will require A LOT of effort.
7. Hunting for nice records has many limiting factors (mastering, quality, where pressed, etc.) but is FUN. (it would be for me)
8. For those who scoff at synergy of a full system, synergy between the four main parts of a TT set up is important. TT, phono stage, tone arm and cart require careful matching and can be changed to create different overall presentations of the music.
9. Record cleaning machine is pretty much mandatory for someone who has to start buying second hand vinyl.
About right?
Useful to pull a summary together. Not everyone will agree with each point but here is my take on it - Y or N
To Summarize what I've learned in regard to TT set ups (all inclusive) in the sub €2500 arena.
1. MC in general is superior in sound to MM, but not always. MM has the benefit of replaceable stylus. Y
2. Suspended TT are possibly better than Non, but increase the amount of finagling required. N not better or worse sonically
3. Belt drives can be finicky. N
4. Project does not get much love from "serious'' TT people. Y its a bland sound for me
5. Album quality whether, new or old varies wildly across the range. Best bets tend to be older pressings form analog tape, but again not always. Y
6. Chances of hearing an enhanced emotional connection with Vinyl over digital, on par with changing from solid state to full tubes, is possible but will require A LOT of effort. Y and N
7. Hunting for nice records has many limiting factors (mastering, quality, where pressed, etc.) but is FUN. (it would be for me) Y but its more about finding right condition of used Lps
8. For those who scoff at synergy of a full system, synergy between the four main parts of a TT set up is important. TT, phono stage, tone arm and cart require careful matching and can be changed to create different overall presentations of the music. Y but it more the tonearm/cartridge (and phono only if MC)
9. Record cleaning machine is pretty much mandatory for someone who has to start buying second hand vinyl. N many people don't have one inc me for most of my t/t ownership
About right?
Regarding this, I can only add one thing from my rather limited experience, but this thing I'm quite sure of:
Absolutely avoid the major labels' reissues of classic rock or pop. I'm talking exclusively about majors here, since almost everything they've done in this area sounds like crap to me. Even with audible distortion in grooves sometimes, poor quality material, just terrible hack jobs and trying to cash in quickly. Then there's the other side of super-duper extra exclusive special editions and box sets that are a rip off even if done right. With classic rock, I always hit discogs or eBay and search for original pressings in minimum EX/VG+ condition that make sense. Good reissue label for rock is Music on vinyl - I have really good experiences with their stuff.
I'd also avoid like the plague anything by "Back on black". The experience I have with their reissues is almost 100% crap. Oh yeah, also avoid any release by "4 men with beards" label - they are terrible hacks.
On the other hand, new music on smaller, independent labels is very often done right, with care and can sound stunning, even when it's done from digital recording. I think there's often not enough attention given to this fact. I listen to a lot of new(er) independent music and very often it's beautifully done.
I have the Back to Black 2014 issue of Grace Jones' Nightclubbing & honestly it is superb, although I concede it might be an exception rather than the rule.
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